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is a cognitive scientist recognized in

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the field of artificial intelligence as

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being one of the most unexampled and

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inventive minds john verveiki is a

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professor of cognitive science at the

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university of toronto who's one of the

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few scholars taking an extensive and

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meticulous cognitive scientific approach

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to the topics of wisdom buddhism and

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consciousness now it's that latter topic

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consciousness that in more ways than one

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finds us here today click on the

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timestamps in the description if you'd

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like to skip this intro my name is

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kirchey mungle i'm a torontonian

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filmmaker with a background in

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mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication of the variegated terrain of

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theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as delineating the possible

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connection consciousness has to the

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fundamental laws of nature

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if those laws exist at all and are

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knowable to us if you enjoy witnessing

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and engaging with others on the topic of

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psychology consciousness physics etc

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then check the description for a link to

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the theories of everything discord as

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well as subreddit there's also a link to

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the patreon that is patreon.com

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if you'd like to contribute as the

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patrons and the sponsors are the only

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reasons that i can do podcasts with this

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level of quality and depth

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as now this is what i do full time

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thanks to their support with regard to

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sponsors there are three the first is

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joining us for the first time and that's

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the anagagi podcast that is a a gog

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podcast it's a podcast dedicated to

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philosophy psychology and consciousness

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thus if you like the conversations that

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we have on this channel with yoshibok

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verveiki bernardo castrop and donald

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hoffman etc then it's worth visiting

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youtube.com slash anagogi podcast that

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is a n a g o g podcast in the latest

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episode of their podcast they talk about

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the foundations of science and the role

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irrationality has to play in science

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they've also spoken to greg henriques

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who has what's akin to a psychological

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theory of everything called the unified

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it's spelt

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a-n-a-g-o-g podcast the second sponsor

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is brilliant during the break i decided

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to brush up on some fundamentals in

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physics so i committed myself to

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learning one lesson per day on brilliant

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some point soon i'd like to speak to

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chiara marletto on constructor theory

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which is predicated heavily in

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information theory so i took a course on

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random variable distributions and

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knowledge and uncertainty despite

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previously knowing the formula for

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entropy as it's hammered into you as an

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undergrad it was extremely edifying to

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see a different explanation of the

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formula for entropy that doesn't seem

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like one that's been handed down

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arbitrarily from god

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instead after taking the course it's

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easy to see why the formula for entropy

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is the way that it is and how it's an

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extremely natural choice there are

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plenty of courses including ones on

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group theory which is what's being

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referenced when you hear that the

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standard model has in it u1 cross su-2

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cross su-3

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those are technically called league

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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thank you and enjoy

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i did watch uh joshua's

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three videos you sent to me and there's

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stuff in there that i i would like to

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sort of pick up on so great great

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okay well i will get started on going

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live

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last time there was this thing you

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always forgot to do and then you

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remembered to do it

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entangling with the welt

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um so geist

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sometimes when this happens it's because

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i'm not awake yet it's just a lucid

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so you're supposed to start flying right

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you have a method to keep yourself lucid

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dreaming

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i used to be able to do it quite readily

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in my 20s but as i've gotten older

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okay so if you can see this type in

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ned's newt type ned's newt

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okay we're seeing there's usually a 20

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second delay between when it actually

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goes live and when people see it

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okay great

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we're live

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welcome so yosha

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why don't we start with what you find

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most interesting about john's work and

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then john you'll talk about what you

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find interesting about yoshos and then

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okay i find it uh fascinating that john

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is a broad thinker that connects many

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different angles on cognitive science

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and connects this also directly with the

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way in which he relates to the world so

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for him science is not just the

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application of methods in a certain

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circumstance area but it relates to the

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way in which he connects to others and

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to himself and to his existence in the

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world in a way and

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this means that in some sense you can

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count hold him accountable for his ideas

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because they

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directly integrate with the way in which

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he thinks about

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what's actually happening

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i

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and

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i'm not sure if this is true but there

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might be aspects where we are agreeing

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or disagreeing and

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perhaps this is a good starting point

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later to get into the discussion

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great and john

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um so

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i like that yosha is also a big picture

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cognitive scientist

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and um

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i enjoy the fact that he

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is

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willing to tackle uh philosophically

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challenging topics in his cognitive

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science and for me i think that's much

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more of that is needed in cognitive

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science today

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now he has a very sophisticated model of

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consciousness and self-hood and there

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are many points of it

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that i would like to talk to him about

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um

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there's some things that are interesting

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he talked about

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just to connect to something he said

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about my work in his mind matters uh

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talk he talked about the

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feeling of what it's like as a primary

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sense of relevance and that of course

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tweaked my ears um and then he put a

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quite a bit of importance on attention

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and as i do and trying to understand

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cognition

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um and so

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and also within his discussion of the

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self

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um he incorporates aspects of narrative

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uh and that's something i'd very much

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like to talk about uh with him so

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there's a lot that i find very

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interesting in his work but

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like i said i commend him for

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um

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the kind of big picture cognitive

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science uh it's it's it's not as common

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as it should be to my mind right now uh

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so

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joshua from your overview of john's work

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what do you see as the disagreements you

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uh i am not as familiar as i would need

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to be to point out all the disagreements

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also i don't know how much uh john's

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views have changed over the last few

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years and decades uh typically when you

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are thinking about these questions there

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is always a lot of movement in your own

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mind i think and you update on ideas and

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so i'm not quite sure what the current

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disagreements would be but i'm sure that

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just because of the multitude of things

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that have to be discussed and uh the

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angles that you can take on them let's

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talk about what the definition of

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consciousness is and sentience and mind

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so those are consciousness sentience and

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mind

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yosha why don't you start with your

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definitions of them then we'll hear

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john's because obviously we have to

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disagree with the definitions yeah sure

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the definitions i don't think that are

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necessarily contentious points we just

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need to

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anchor them somehow so we agree on what

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things we are talking about and what we

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we're not talking about i think so to me

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mind is basically um the

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vehicle in which everything plays out

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it's basically the mechanism and

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substrate that is uh emergent over

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mostly the activity of the brain i think

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and inside of the mind there happens a

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model of the world and the self and the

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mind also facilitates motivation at some

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level

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and

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then

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the next term that we wanted to talk

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about is

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sentence is the ability of a system to

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relate to its environment and to

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discover itself in the environment and

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establish this kind of relationship and

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in this way learn what it's doing

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and i don't think that sentence is the

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same thing as consciousness because for

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instance it doesn't have to happen in

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real time there doesn't need to be an

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immediate reflexive awareness of this

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process itself that is becoming aware

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in a sense i think for instance that

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corporations are usually not conscious i

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think but many corporations are sentient

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in the sense that they understand what

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the corporation is how this corporation

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relates to the world and how it

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interacts with the world and plans for

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it and of course the sentience of the

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corporation is facilitated by the people

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that work for the corporation in this

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planning role but so sentience is a

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functional properties that many

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intelligent systems develop

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and uh consciousness is

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colloquially speaking the feeling of

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what it's like it's a as a particular

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phenomenology that is

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it looks like something to the system

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that is conscious and i think that

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functionally consciousness is largely a

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control model of the attention of the

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system

282
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conscious for instance a cat

283
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or a human being what we mean is that

284
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this system is able to act on a model of

285
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its own awareness which means it knows

286
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that it is aware of things and uses that

287
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to drive its own behavior in the moment

288
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is that distinct from self-consciousness

289
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that it's aware that it's aware

290
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self is slightly different because you

291
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can be conscious without having a self

292
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for instance in dreams you will very

293
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often

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notice that you are conscious but there

295
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is no eye

296
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and also in meditative states you don't

297
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need to focus on the eye what typically

298
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happens though in the type of

299
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consciousness that we have is that we

300
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know that something is conscious so we

301
00:11:18,389 --> 00:11:16,880
are aware of the awareness but that

302
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:18,399
doesn't need to have a first-person

303
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:20,480
perspective in consciousness

304
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so i would say that first-person

305
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:23,839
perspective and consciousness even

306
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though in our normal daytime wakeful

307
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:28,800
state are largely uh related are

308
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actually orthogonal you can have them

309
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:33,600
independently of each other in a way

310
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:35,920
okay john so what are your definitions

311
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:38,560
or what do you agree with disagree with

312
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well

313
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first of all about the reference before

314
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:42,640
the sentence um

315
00:11:47,829 --> 00:11:46,079
yeah i take it to my mind to refer to

316
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,839
um

317
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although whether or not it forms a

318
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,279
unified entity it's perhaps part of the

319
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question but what we're referring to

320
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,519
mine refer referring to some

321
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unity some system

322
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:59,839
by which we are intelligent and

323
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conscious

324
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and i take intelligence to be the

325
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capacity to be a general problem solver

326
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:09,120
and

327
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i'm not sure

328
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um

329
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:12,399
what

330
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:13,600
the problem i have with this in

331
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:15,360
cognitive science is the term mind is

332
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equivocal

333
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:19,839
uh people use it in different ways uh

334
00:12:22,829 --> 00:12:21,200
make different identity claims a

335
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:22,839
neuroscientist perhaps saying it's brain

336
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function the ai person may say it's a

337
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,480
particular kind of learning algorithm

338
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,399
the psychologist will say it's you know

339
00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:32,560
that which generates behavior

340
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:34,079
and the point about this is it's not

341
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:36,240
just a terminological difference

342
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:37,760
they use different methods of gathering

343
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:39,279
evidence they make different kinds of

344
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,639
arguments they have different kinds of

345
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,720
theoretical entities the psychologists

346
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:44,639
may talk about working memory

347
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:46,079
right

348
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:46,800
the

349
00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:48,639
ai person may talk about certain aspects

350
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:50,800
of machine learning of course

351
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,160
the neuroscientists may talk about

352
00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:54,320
neural net on various neural networks in

353
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the biological sense

354
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:58,880
so i take it that what i'm trying to do

355
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:01,680
as a cognitive scientist is find out if

356
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:03,360
all of those different definitions of

357
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,880
mind can

358
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:06,560
work together

359
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:08,560
to get back to the coherent unity that

360
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:10,720
we traditionally met by the word mind so

361
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,880
that's part of the problem but as part

362
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:14,399
of the fun of trying to do cognitive

363
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:17,279
scientists it's often very hard

364
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:19,120
to get the anthropologist the linguist

365
00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:20,480
the psychologist

366
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:21,600
um

367
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:23,440
the neuroscientist and the ai person to

368
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:25,120
all agree and you put them in the room

369
00:13:28,629 --> 00:13:26,240
and then usually you throw in

370
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:28,639
philosophers who are supposed to help uh

371
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:30,320
get all that discourse running smoothly

372
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,360
and they often make things more

373
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:33,360
challenging which is makes it especially

374
00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:37,040
fun um so i i largely agree with what uh

375
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:38,800
joshua said uh although i want to

376
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,600
problematize it um and specifically it's

377
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,519
something that cognitive sciences

378
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,360
asking the question what is mind is not

379
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:47,360
a clear question anymore and i think

380
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:48,639
getting clear about what that question

381
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,240
is is one of the tasks of cognitive

382
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,160
science

383
00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:54,560
so um

384
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:56,320
sentience um

385
00:14:01,030 --> 00:13:58,959
an awareness and uh

386
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:01,040
i i tend to have i tend to bind

387
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:02,880
sentience to maidson's notion of

388
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:04,079
sentience

389
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,440
uh

390
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,360
which is a way i think it might overlap

391
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,680
with what yoshi means by awareness but a

392
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:11,360
sentient system is one that can in some

393
00:14:14,230 --> 00:14:12,800
sense size up

394
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:14,240
its situation

395
00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:16,959
um it it's aware of it but not in just

396
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:18,639
sort of the nebulous sense

397
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:20,959
uh right it it it can foreground in

398
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,360
background information uh things like

399
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:26,399
that um so perhaps i think a little bit

400
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:27,680
of a tighter connection between

401
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:32,160
sentience and uh perceptual awareness um

402
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:34,560
consciousness uh consciousness

403
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:35,760
[Music]

404
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:38,079
is usually sort of two aspects and of

405
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:39,760
course there's a all of this everything

406
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:41,440
i'm saying here is fraught and yoshi

407
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:43,440
knows this right

408
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,800
people talk about two aspects of

409
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:46,160
consciousness

410
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:47,360
there's one

411
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,880
aspect that's often called access

412
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,040
consciousness this is part of what

413
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:53,920
consciousness means is my my i can ready

414
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:55,920
things i can make things ready for a

415
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:58,160
reason i can make them ready for problem

416
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,000
solving

417
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,160
and i can bring aspects of my you know

418
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,639
of my skills and my perception and my

419
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:06,320
understanding together

420
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,000
um

421
00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:10,480
and then there's what's called the

422
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,839
phenomenal and some people say

423
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:13,040
phenomenological there's a bit of

424
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:15,120
confusion around that but anyways as

425
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:16,880
yoshi said this is the feeling of what

426
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,680
it's like what it's like to be me here

427
00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:21,600
now in this situation

428
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,959
it could mean that it can mean something

429
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:25,040
very primitive like what is it like to

430
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:26,399
experience green

431
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:27,920
and this is the so-called problem of

432
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:29,199
qualia

433
00:15:33,509 --> 00:15:30,800
and so one way people think of

434
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,519
consciousness is the the place where

435
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:35,279
qualia exists

436
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,079
um

437
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:38,720
for me there's two central questions we

438
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:41,279
we are asking and part of what i would

439
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:43,040
argue is we need to integrate them

440
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:45,120
together and one of the the strengths i

441
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:47,600
see of yoshi's work is i do see him

442
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:49,040
attempting and i don't mean attempting

443
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,800
as a as a as an insult we're all

444
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,959
attempting here um

445
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:54,639
attempting to integrate these two

446
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:56,320
questions together one is the function

447
00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:57,680
question which is basically what the

448
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:59,680
hell does consciousness do

449
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,920
given that so much

450
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,440
so much of our intelligent behavior

451
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:05,279
happens unconsciously what is

452
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:06,560
consciousness for some people are

453
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:07,759
willing to say it's not for anything

454
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:09,360
it's just an epiphenomenon it doesn't do

455
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,199
anything it has no function yoshi

456
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:13,519
doesn't say that i'm not saying he does

457
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:15,040
the other question is the nature problem

458
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:16,639
how is it that something like

459
00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:19,920
consciousness exists in this physical

460
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:21,680
world which

461
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:23,680
amongst all these objects that don't

462
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:26,800
seem to have any of these subjective uh

463
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:28,959
properties qualia things like that at

464
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:31,199
least since the scientific revolution we

465
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,839
separated all of those out from uh the

466
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:35,839
physical universe and we put them in

467
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:37,680
this place

468
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:39,040
now i happen to think that you should

469
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:40,560
try and answer those questions together

470
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:42,880
in an integrated fashion

471
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:44,560
one of the criticisms i have of some of

472
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:46,320
the central theories is they tend to

473
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:48,000
answer one question

474
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:49,920
while neglecting the other and vice

475
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:51,279
versa um

476
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:52,639
so i think that's

477
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:53,519
my

478
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:54,800
best i had to say a little bit more

479
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:56,000
because he went first so i had to sort

480
00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:58,880
of take into what uh yoshi said uh but

481
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:01,120
that's um

482
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:02,720
trying to answer

483
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:04,559
any good definition of consciousness

484
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:06,079
should try and answer the function and

485
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:07,839
the nature questions in an integrated

486
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,919
fashion

487
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:11,919
john you said that some people say that

488
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:13,839
consciousness is where qualia exist what

489
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,110
so one way i mean this goes back largely

490
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:21,679
to descartes and it's picked up by locke

491
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:24,000
um so

492
00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:25,679
galileo made a distinction between

493
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:27,520
primary qualities

494
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,080
and right or qualia

495
00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:32,480
and secondary uh primary qualities are

496
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,200
ones that are mathematically measurable

497
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:37,200
in some on some sense like you know the

498
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:40,480
length of an object its mass things like

499
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:42,559
that and galileo proposed that those

500
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:45,039
were real they were in the objective

501
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:46,480
world

502
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:48,559
and then there are all the qualia that

503
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:50,640
are not mathematic mathematically

504
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:51,840
measurable

505
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:54,640
like the the experience

506
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:56,559
not the reflectance pattern but the

507
00:18:01,110 --> 00:17:59,360
experience of greenness the experience

508
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,120
of sweetness the experience of beauty

509
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:04,080
perhaps and so for for descartes

510
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:06,320
following up on galileo those things did

511
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:08,240
not exist in the world they they existed

512
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:10,000
only in the mind they were therefore

513
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:12,480
only in the subject they were subjective

514
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,360
and that's qualia now the idea is

515
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:18,000
there's lots of your there's lots of

516
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,919
stuff happening in the mind

517
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:21,760
unconsciously that doesn't seem to be

518
00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:23,520
generating any of that qualitative

519
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:27,600
experience it only seems to be the case

520
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,440
or it seems to be the case that not only

521
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,280
seems to be it seems to be the case that

522
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:33,679
those qualia only exist when i'm awake

523
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:36,559
alert and aware in some fashion um and

524
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:39,200
so they seem to be in consciousness now

525
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:41,919
that that in is at best metaphorical but

526
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:44,720
that's how many people many people take

527
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,320
that to be

528
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:48,320
the central phenomena

529
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:50,240
of consciousness

530
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:55,440
largely the problem of answering that

531
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,280
uh other people think other

532
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:58,960
other aspects of consciousness aren't

533
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:00,720
central like intentionality the

534
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:03,120
consciousness seems to be about things

535
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:06,000
directed at things

536
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:07,600
josh did you have any comments on any of

537
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:09,360
what john said so

538
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:10,480
personally i don't think that the

539
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:13,120
aboutness is so much the problem but

540
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,200
we can go into what we personally find

541
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:17,679
puzzling about the entire affair

542
00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:18,559
and

543
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:20,640
with respect to qualia i think that

544
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,880
there are two aspects that should be

545
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:25,039
kept separate one is

546
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,440
what is the difference between

547
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:29,600
these elements and features of

548
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,559
experience and the measurement

549
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:34,480
and the other one is what makes them

550
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,679
experiential what is experience itself

551
00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:38,480
and

552
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,080
the first question is something that

553
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:42,720
became i think quite apparent in

554
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:45,120
early work that i participated in

555
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:47,840
robotics we taught little sony ibro

556
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,799
robots to play soccer and in the course

557
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:53,120
of this task they had to watch balls

558
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:54,720
moving over a field and we had to

559
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,960
segment out the balls and when the task

560
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:58,960
was set up by the people who developed

561
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,480
this game

562
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,400
uh we already

563
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:04,799
made this task as easy as possible at

564
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,880
least we thought we made the field

565
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,880
extremely and homogeneously green there

566
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:10,640
were some white lines on the field but

567
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:13,600
still and the ball was very orange

568
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:15,840
and unfortunately the ball was a little

569
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:19,440
bit reflecting and the field was also

570
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:21,679
taking up some of these reflections and

571
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:23,200
we thought we could solve the problem

572
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,720
basically with the lookup table where we

573
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,360
just would match certain color values

574
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,440
from the rgb sensors of the camera of

575
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:31,600
the robot to whether it's wall or field

576
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:32,960
and this didn't work

577
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:35,840
we found that the pixels below the ball

578
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,000
were more orange than the pixels at the

579
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:41,200
bottom of the ball were not green

580
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:43,120
so in some sense if we just did collar

581
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,760
tables the the colors were at the in the

582
00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:47,360
area where the ball touched the field

583
00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:48,799
were inverted

584
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:50,640
and so we needed to be more intelligent

585
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,039
we needed to figure out ultimately of

586
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:55,600
whether pixels that we see in a certain

587
00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:57,679
region of the

588
00:21:00,549 --> 00:20:58,640
field

589
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:00,559
are probably part of the ball and are

590
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:02,880
probably part of the field and depending

591
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,640
on this context we would have to

592
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,480
reinterpret them

593
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:08,559
and so i noticed that

594
00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:11,120
a color is not just a certain wavelength

595
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,039
or a certain rgb value that you take

596
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:15,760
from your camera sensor it's an

597
00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:17,919
interpretation that is qualitatively

598
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:20,720
bound to the context in which it's being

599
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:21,679
measured

600
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,559
so

601
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:24,559
the property of redness is not just a

602
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:25,760
certain

603
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:28,320
rtb value it is

604
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:30,799
given in the context of a red object um

605
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:32,960
the interpretation of the surface

606
00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:35,280
properties in the stationary way of that

607
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:37,280
object right so it's a property that

608
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:39,919
attaches to to an object in a certain

609
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,080
context redness is the property that is

610
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:44,400
shared by all the right objects and you

611
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:46,559
cannot separate redness from this in the

612
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:47,679
processing

613
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:50,080
if you have changing lighting and real

614
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:51,280
world lighting

615
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,039
so there needs to be some kind of

616
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,679
feature processing that makes

617
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:57,360
that turns a measurement into a

618
00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:59,360
context-dependent feature

619
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:00,799
that is in

620
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,840
multiple dimensions qualitative

621
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,760
so i think it's a happy accident that

622
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,159
this rhymes to qualia it's not actually

623
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:10,320
the reason but this answers i think to

624
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,480
some degree the first question

625
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:14,080
why is

626
00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:16,240
are the elements of experience different

627
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,840
for measurements and what distinguishes

628
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,520
them for measurements but it doesn't

629
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,840
answer the second question what is it to

630
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:23,440
experience

631
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:25,520
why is this thing part of my inner

632
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:26,720
reality

633
00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:27,919
and this is to be explained in a

634
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:29,600
different way it has to be explained by

635
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:31,600
a certain kind of architecture and this

636
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,679
is what some people find very passionate

637
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,360
it doesn't look that puzzling to me and

638
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:37,840
we can look into the details of what it

639
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,600
looks like but for instance one

640
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:41,200
important aspect is

641
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:43,520
that we can learn to deconstruct the

642
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,840
qualitative experience of the things

643
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,280
that we're looking at so when we look

644
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:49,760
for instance at a face what we typically

645
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:50,799
see is

646
00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:52,880
an expression in the face

647
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:54,640
it's not just a geometrical arrangement

648
00:22:58,950 --> 00:22:56,960
of features but we can't stare for a

649
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,960
face for long enough until the faceness

650
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:00,960
of the face disappears and the only

651
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:02,640
thing that's left is the geometrical

652
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,640
arrangement and we can go further and

653
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:06,960
let the geometry disappear and we just

654
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:09,280
see colored blobs and flickering and so

655
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:10,880
on and

656
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,200
in this way we can start deconstructing

657
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:15,520
the elements of our experience and once

658
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,520
we see how they are deconstructed we can

659
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:18,880
also get a glimpse in how they are

660
00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:21,200
constructed in the first place

661
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:23,440
one of my students once told me you know

662
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:25,760
there's a via very weird thing i can see

663
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:28,799
faces in power plugs

664
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:31,440
and uh there's a vault software faces

665
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:33,679
where involved sockets right if you look

666
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:35,760
at a power socket in a wall you can uh

667
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:37,280
people can see your face in here it said

668
00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:40,559
yeah most people can do that right it's

669
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:42,799
called parado layer it's basically this

670
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:45,520
ability to see uh

671
00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:47,600
faces and other things in patterns in

672
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:49,039
our environment

673
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:50,960
and so on and since that but you know

674
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,480
there are no faces in power sockets

675
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:57,120
and i told her yeah the dark secret is

676
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,159
there are also no faces on people

677
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:02,240
you just project them there right it's

678
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:03,520
there intrinsically there's just

679
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:05,039
geometry

680
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,960
it's this thing that there is something

681
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,240
that you look at

682
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:10,240
another one that looks at you that looks

683
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,880
out of their eyes and is interpreting

684
00:24:16,149 --> 00:24:14,480
the world in a particular vein you see

685
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:16,159
that in their face you see in their face

686
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,840
what they feel and so on how they relate

687
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,679
to you this is just a projection that

688
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,360
your mind is making it's not actually a

689
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:23,279
visual feature it's a high level

690
00:24:27,669 --> 00:24:24,720
interpretation of things like the

691
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:27,679
emotional state and so on that are all

692
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:29,679
mixed into your interpretation of

693
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:35,990
um so

694
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:38,480
i guess uh what i i don't have any

695
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:40,400
disagreement with that

696
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:41,760
at least right now

697
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:43,360
um i

698
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:46,080
i'm in agreement with this idea

699
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,279
that when we're talking about

700
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:51,120
perception and

701
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:53,120
we're talking about doing things in

702
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,440
terms of a context dependence

703
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:57,679
and then the sensitivity to that the

704
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,559
sensitivity to context of conduct

705
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,400
context dependence i think it's really

706
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:03,679
really crucial

707
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,120
i see that sensitivity as bound up with

708
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:09,679
uh the capacity for interpretation

709
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:13,760
interpretation means uh being able to

710
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,919
in some way direct your attention for

711
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:17,760
your awareness to some features rather

712
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:19,120
than others because you can of course

713
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:20,080
take in

714
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,279
all possible features of of the object

715
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:25,760
or the environment etc

716
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:28,159
so i guess i see those two processes as

717
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,120
a little bit more closely related and

718
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:33,440
um i do think that part of what it's

719
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,320
like to experience a face

720
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:38,400
is to find it relevant in a particular

721
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:41,039
fashion to find it as fitted to that

722
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,600
context and fitted to your task within

723
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,360
that context

724
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,880
and i think that

725
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,880
also as joshua said i think that goes

726
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,200
into the perception of it so i see i

727
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:53,279
guess perhaps a deeper interpenetration

728
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:54,799
between

729
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:57,279
the perception and the interpretation um

730
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:59,279
this goes around uh ideas like i've been

731
00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:00,320
talking about about relevance

732
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:01,600
realization

733
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:02,880
um

734
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:04,000
now

735
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:06,240
there's there was an interesting um move

736
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:07,760
made there and i don't know how fast we

737
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,720
want to go onto logical um where there

738
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,320
was um

739
00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:14,799
you know the face isn't really there

740
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,679
and

741
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:17,200
um

742
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:24,640
means

743
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,039
maybe yoshi can

744
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,919
because i take it for example

745
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:30,880
that

746
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:34,240
my experience

747
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:37,200
that i find meaningful um and

748
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,679
like um do i want to say

749
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:42,000
that the various you know gauges i'm

750
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,360
using in science are just projections um

751
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,279
do i want to say that the other people

752
00:26:52,870 --> 00:26:49,279
that are debating with me are just

753
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,880
projections so i get something to do

754
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:53,679
yeah

755
00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:56,240
uh but the problem is

756
00:26:59,350 --> 00:26:57,200
is

757
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:59,360
um there's an implicit normativity of

758
00:27:01,830 --> 00:27:00,799
realness there

759
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:01,840
that

760
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,760
um i guess i want i i want to unpack a

761
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:06,720
little bit

762
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:08,159
because like i said i think the point

763
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:09,840
that yoshi made just generalizes to

764
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,880
everything

765
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:12,240
and then

766
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:13,760
i i have sort of epistemological and

767
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:16,240
ontological concerns about that

768
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,640
because it might i'm not saying it does

769
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:20,799
i'm saying it might sort of lead me into

770
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,440
kind of a solar cystic skepticism which

771
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:25,600
makes the very proc the very attempt to

772
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:29,120
do science itself kind of implausible um

773
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:30,080
so

774
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:32,480
what is it i mean surely there might

775
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,279
surely maybe not surely

776
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:37,200
there must be

777
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:40,000
uh perception that counts as observation

778
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:43,760
of the environment i take it um and

779
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:46,720
why is it not just a projection i guess

780
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,430
yes so

781
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:53,760
this particular point relates to the

782
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,600
question of whether faces are part of

783
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:57,039
res extensor

784
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:58,720
and

785
00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:59,840
we have to

786
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,080
sort out what we mean by res extension

787
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:04,159
the typical way in which descartes is

788
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:07,200
interpreted is that there are two

789
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,000
substances out in physics in a way

790
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:12,000
ontologically at the level at which the

791
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,000
universe exists and one of these

792
00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:16,399
substances is stuff in space

793
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,159
the extended things the objects in the

794
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:19,520
world

795
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,399
and then we have res cognitives which is

796
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,559
the space of ideas in which the mind

797
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:26,640
exists and somehow they interact with

798
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:29,279
each other so basically the mind exists

799
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:31,840
in a different dimension of the universe

800
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:35,039
and remote controls the physical body uh

801
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:38,080
via the pineal gland or

802
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:40,480
as popper and eccles suggested via the

803
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:42,880
neocortex which is some kind of magical

804
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:44,880
quantum antenna which talks to the mind

805
00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:46,720
in a different realm that is not in

806
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:49,840
physics and i think this is an um

807
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,600
misunderstanding that

808
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,000
ultimately can be mapped to faulty on

809
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,640
epistemology so there is a

810
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:58,720
weird perspective on what we think is

811
00:29:02,470 --> 00:28:59,840
and in the way in which it is

812
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:02,480
constituted it's also reflected in the

813
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:03,520
christian

814
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:06,399
interpretation of the genesis

815
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,240
and maybe this is not unrelated because

816
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:10,320
it's part of the same cultural tradition

817
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,080
this interpretation of genesis and the

818
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:14,080
interpretation of descartes

819
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:14,880
and

820
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:17,600
in genesis we have the creation of a

821
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:19,600
physical universe by a supernatural

822
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:22,000
being in the common interpretation

823
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:25,039
and it starts out with the creation of

824
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,720
light and darkness which are separated

825
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:28,960
from each other and then the creation of

826
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:30,720
sky and ground and then the plants and

827
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:32,240
the animals eventually and then they all

828
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:33,520
get their name

829
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:35,279
but we do know that

830
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:38,559
sky and ground are not physical entities

831
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,880
and colors are not in physics there are

832
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,720
constructions that only happen in our

833
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:44,320
mind and and when we look at

834
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:45,919
foundational physics we see a weird

835
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,559
quantum graph that has

836
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,799
a very complicated properties among them

837
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,720
apparently the property to throws

838
00:29:56,549 --> 00:29:54,480
regular patterns at our systemic

839
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:56,559
interface so our brain can find

840
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,240
regularity in them and part of these

841
00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:00,159
regularities that our mind is

842
00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,799
discovering in quite reliable ways is

843
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:04,799
darkness and brightness and sky and

844
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:07,279
ground and plants and animals and giving

845
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,880
them all their names which is cognitive

846
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:11,039
development so the universe that you and

847
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,720
me are interacting with

848
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:14,080
experientially

849
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:16,559
and also intersubjectively is not a

850
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:18,960
physical universe we are not talking

851
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,760
about entities in physics and we talk

852
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:23,600
about the universe to each other we

853
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:25,840
largely talk about entities in our

854
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:27,120
experience

855
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:28,720
and now it turns out that this

856
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,080
experience that our brain is

857
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:32,320
constructing for us to relate to which

858
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:34,799
is a core screening of the patterns that

859
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:37,279
the physical universe throws at us

860
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,320
contain

861
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:40,320
two types of entities

862
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:43,679
and one group of entities is what we

863
00:30:47,909 --> 00:30:45,760
could call stuff in space it's like a

864
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:47,919
physics engine in a computer game so we

865
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:48,640
have

866
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,399
a three-dimensional

867
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:52,480
basically euclidean space in which we

868
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:54,480
have extended objects that occupy

869
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:57,039
volumes and these objects can be solid

870
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:01,120
or liquid or gaseous and they displace

871
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:02,640
each other and they have all these

872
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:04,799
properties that we would call rest

873
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:07,360
extensor but this res extensor is

874
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:09,919
geometric it's mechanical

875
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,159
it doesn't want something it's just

876
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:14,240
moving in a mechanical way

877
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:17,279
and so when the student said that there

878
00:31:21,510 --> 00:31:18,799
are no faces

879
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:21,520
in power sockets what she meant is that

880
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:23,919
the physical thing the rest extends i

881
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,240
think the geometrical thing the face

882
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,080
is not really on the power plug and i

883
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:30,080
pointed to her out that the face itself

884
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,320
is not a geometrical thing so when you

885
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:34,320
see a face what you see is not actually

886
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,799
a geometry it's not part of something

887
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:38,399
that you would construct with a 3d

888
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:39,600
program

889
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:41,760
what you have to construct is a certain

890
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,480
part of rescogins it's a certain

891
00:31:49,029 --> 00:31:46,880
interpretation of a high-level feature

892
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:49,039
that is already a mental feature that we

893
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:51,200
see this intentional entity in the world

894
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:54,960
expressed by uh its interface to the

895
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:58,559
world and so i think this way we can

896
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:01,919
join in me probably agree on a way in

897
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:03,600
which we disassemble the category or at

898
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,679
least make the next step

899
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:08,080
and so i would agree that of course

900
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:10,480
every entity that we make out in the

901
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,720
universe ultimately is an imposition

902
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:14,399
that our mind is making

903
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,080
this imposition is not necessarily an

904
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:18,559
arbitrary one because the universe

905
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,399
cannot be officially encoded in every

906
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:22,000
possible way there are certain ways in

907
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:23,600
which the encoding makes sense and

908
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:25,760
others where it doesn't help you to

909
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:27,519
interpret the world

910
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,640
so the way in which we um

911
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:32,399
draw the boundaries between objects is

912
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:34,080
not arbitrary but the boundaries are

913
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,110
okay so um

914
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:43,919
uh uh of course you're aware of the i

915
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,320
mean first of all a comment um i do

916
00:32:51,269 --> 00:32:48,799
think there's a deep connection between

917
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,279
um the christian models which is sort of

918
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:53,039
a two worlds mythology

919
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,600
and descartes uh dualism of mind and

920
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,600
body so i think that's an accurate

921
00:33:01,909 --> 00:32:59,919
historical observation um

922
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:01,919
i talk a bit about that connection in my

923
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,600
awakening from the meeting crisis series

924
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:05,120
so um

925
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:06,480
in fact i often talk about christian

926
00:33:10,549 --> 00:33:08,559
cartesianism as the as the link between

927
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:10,559
those so i think that's a good a good

928
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:13,039
historical observation

929
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,000
of course the the deep problem uh with

930
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:18,720
finding that division of res extension

931
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:21,200
and res cognitives

932
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:23,440
to be the sort of final note on your

933
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,399
ontology

934
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,720
is the problem that beset descartes

935
00:33:29,669 --> 00:33:28,720
which is the problem that spinoza

936
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,679
immediately

937
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:31,760
recognized is that there's no possible

938
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,000
causal interaction between these domains

939
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:36,320
and you get the separation of right

940
00:33:41,669 --> 00:33:38,640
reasons from causes and you get all of

941
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:41,679
these kind kinds of problems um

942
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:44,480
and so i take it that there is something

943
00:33:50,389 --> 00:33:47,760
fundamentally wrong with the ontology if

944
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:50,399
it's giving us that kind of

945
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:53,120
deep i mean it strikes me as absurd to

946
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:55,679
say that my mental states whatever they

947
00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:57,120
happen to be in my physical states are

948
00:34:01,269 --> 00:33:59,039
not causally interacting with each other

949
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:01,279
uh on an ongoing basis

950
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,919
and you know that

951
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:05,519
i if i if

952
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:07,440
if i presume that kind of dualism then

953
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,879
of course i can't also pick up on your

954
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:10,320
mental states because all i get is your

955
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:13,280
bodily behavior etc and if there is no

956
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:14,879
causal relationship between your mental

957
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:17,119
states and your bodily behavior um then

958
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,720
of course i can't

959
00:34:22,629 --> 00:34:20,480
pick up on other minds

960
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,639
and so

961
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,839
i mean

962
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:25,200
you i know you know this because you've

963
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:26,560
mentioned it in one of the one of the

964
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:28,879
talks i mean that ontology is though is

965
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:31,280
deeply problematic because it generates

966
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,760
these really really

967
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:36,000
powerful and perfect

968
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:37,919
yeah dualism is very difficult to get to

969
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:38,800
work

970
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:39,599
and

971
00:35:00,550 --> 00:34:40,480
i

972
00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:00,560
and

973
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:01,520
the

974
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:04,800
when a meditator believes that uh

975
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:07,839
res cognitants is uh separate from uh

976
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:10,480
res extenza and uh res extends us out

977
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:11,760
there in the physical world and

978
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:14,000
experiencing the physical world and they

979
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:15,359
managed to

980
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:17,599
go to the state of reality construction

981
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:19,280
where this boundary between self and

982
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,520
world is obliterated and they suddenly

983
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,440
noticed this unity of the system and oh

984
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:25,760
my god everything is consciousness uh

985
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:29,040
they uh became panzerkists uh

986
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:30,640
right it's that's a fundamental

987
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:33,280
confusion that results uh from uh this

988
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:35,440
error in the ontology

989
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:36,240
and

990
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:38,800
uh when i was young i stumbled on the

991
00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:41,520
same uh issue as you just mentioned uh

992
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,599
if you are a dualist

993
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,920
how does this interface between

994
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:48,160
the causally closed physical universe

995
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:49,119
and

996
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,880
the mind work

997
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:52,480
there are some solutions to this like

998
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:54,000
for instance

999
00:35:58,150 --> 00:35:55,760
occasionalism which means they just

1000
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:58,160
happen to be synchronous but there is no

1001
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:59,599
direct connection between them and

1002
00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:01,520
ultimately this is a form of epi

1003
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,240
phenomenalism so it would not be a

1004
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:06,400
violation of the causal closure of

1005
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:08,400
physics if your

1006
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:10,000
ontologically separate mind would be

1007
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:11,359
reading it but wouldn't have right

1008
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:13,920
access right so you could have this

1009
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:16,560
physical universe mechanically clicking

1010
00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:17,440
uh

1011
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:19,359
by itself but you could have the mind

1012
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:21,040
looking at it from the outside but as

1013
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:22,800
soon as the mind writes you should be

1014
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:25,040
able sometimes to see certain violations

1015
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,560
of the conservation of energy or the

1016
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:28,720
conservation of information in the lab

1017
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:31,040
and apparently you don't and popper and

1018
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:33,040
eccles hope that it's possible to

1019
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,079
basically

1020
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,320
hide this in the randomness of quantum

1021
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:38,000
events but still it would need to be a

1022
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:39,599
systematic violation so i don't think

1023
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:41,200
that this would work

1024
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:43,520
and the attempts to

1025
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:46,400
solve this problem i think that

1026
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:48,640
they they don't work out

1027
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:50,960
so i thought there is two possibilities

1028
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:53,119
one is either we are an entirely

1029
00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:54,720
mechanical universe and there is no

1030
00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:56,960
conspiracy going on of course it's also

1031
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,880
possible that the mechanical universe is

1032
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:00,720
in some kind of simulation right so we

1033
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:02,560
could be running in some kind of nerd's

1034
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:05,040
computer and that is stationed in the

1035
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:05,839
next

1036
00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:08,400
level universe and of course this nerd

1037
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:10,160
could also interact with our world and

1038
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:12,000
in a sense dualism in some sense might

1039
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:13,520
be possible it could also be that our

1040
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:16,000
minds indeed run on a separate machine

1041
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:17,839
and interact with it but in this sense

1042
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:19,920
every supernatural thing would have to

1043
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:22,000
have a natural cause at some level in

1044
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:24,160
one of the parent universes just

1045
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:25,839
unfortunately this

1046
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:27,520
intermediate level could be a symbolic

1047
00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:28,560
one

1048
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:31,200
and the symbolic universe is a magical

1049
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,640
universe

1050
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:34,160
right if you have a magical interaction

1051
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:36,000
that for instance in minecraft you can

1052
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:37,839
open up a shell and you can say times

1053
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:39,920
that day and the sun rises and there is

1054
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:41,920
no process within the cellular automaton

1055
00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:43,359
of minecraft that explains this

1056
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,839
mechanical you would have to go a level

1057
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:47,920
uh behind that and understand the way in

1058
00:37:51,910 --> 00:37:49,119
which the minecraft universe is

1059
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:51,920
constituted as some kind of simulation

1060
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,920
and simulacrum and part running on a

1061
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:55,680
computer and a parent universe that

1062
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,359
allows you to do magic

1063
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:58,720
but uh

1064
00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:00,560
a step back the alternative to the

1065
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:02,640
mechanical universe

1066
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:04,800
of physics and physicalism is the idea

1067
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:06,400
that there is a mechanical universe

1068
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,320
happening in base reality and we are

1069
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:10,160
directly emergent over that base

1070
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:11,599
universe so we don't live in some kind

1071
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:14,400
of simulation that that is physicalism

1072
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:15,839
and uh

1073
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:18,800
the alternative is we live in a dream

1074
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:21,200
and in the dream magic is possible in a

1075
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:23,200
dream it's possible that you can break

1076
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:25,119
the laws of physics it's possible that

1077
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,359
you can have telepathy in a way that

1078
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:29,359
violates the standard model and you can

1079
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:31,599
have ghosts and you can have all sorts

1080
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:33,440
of weird things for which you cannot

1081
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:35,760
possibly have a physical explanation

1082
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:37,040
maybe for some of them there are

1083
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:39,440
physical explanations but by and large

1084
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,760
this is the main

1085
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:43,680
boundary and when you look at the

1086
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:45,599
philosophies that exist

1087
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:47,760
there are basically these two types of

1088
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,079
big philosophical approaches that exist

1089
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:52,400
in the history of humanity that either

1090
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,320
are fully monistically idealist and say

1091
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,560
we do live in a dream and the idealists

1092
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,240
have to explain why this dream looks in

1093
00:39:01,430 --> 00:39:00,480
many parts so damn regular

1094
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:01,440
and

1095
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,800
mechanical

1096
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:05,280
oh and the other group says the universe

1097
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:06,960
is entirely mechanical and this group

1098
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,800
has to explain why so many magic things

1099
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:10,320
seem to be happening

1100
00:39:13,910 --> 00:39:12,079
and then we have to find an agreement

1101
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:13,920
which of the things are mechanical and

1102
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:17,359
which of the things are magical and why

1103
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:18,560
right and

1104
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:20,800
at some point it became apparent to me

1105
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:23,520
that we obviously do live in a dream

1106
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:25,200
but that this dream

1107
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:26,880
would have to be dreamt

1108
00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:28,720
by some kind of

1109
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:32,000
mind in a higher plane of existence

1110
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:33,599
probably in some kind of mechanical

1111
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:35,280
fashion because you need functionality

1112
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:37,200
that facilitates the interaction of the

1113
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:39,040
elements in your dream because it's not

1114
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:40,000
random

1115
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:41,440
this is also apparent when you have a

1116
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:42,400
lucid dream

1117
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,280
right

1118
00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:45,440
once you observe a number of your lucid

1119
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:47,839
dreams you notice how they are composed

1120
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,920
you notice some of the mechanisms of of

1121
00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:51,599
lucid dreaming you notice some of the

1122
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:53,760
limitations of how many elements can be

1123
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,520
stable for how long and you lose the

1124
00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:57,280
dream and so on the ways in which you

1125
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:59,040
interact with them and so the lucid

1126
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:00,880
dream itself becomes apparent as

1127
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,720
something that is facilitated by

1128
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:04,079
mechanisms

1129
00:40:08,790 --> 00:40:06,400
and so what would be the properties of

1130
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:08,800
that higher plane of existence and i

1131
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:10,480
think this higher plane of existence is

1132
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,839
physics

1133
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:13,520
right physical systems cannot be

1134
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,839
conscious only simulated things can be

1135
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:17,520
conscious consciousness is a virtual

1136
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:19,599
property it's simulated it exists in the

1137
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:22,960
dream and the system that dreams us

1138
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:25,040
according to our best theories right now

1139
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:27,440
is the brain in physics

1140
00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:29,520
and the confusion that we have about

1141
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:31,119
this when we think about this arises

1142
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:32,960
through the notion that what we

1143
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:34,960
experience when we look at brains our

1144
00:40:39,829 --> 00:40:37,520
brains but we don't these squishy pink

1145
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:39,839
things are elements of our dream that

1146
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,680
are generated in non-random fashion in

1147
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,520
the parent reality and the parent

1148
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:45,040
reality is something that we can never

1149
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:46,720
have access to we cannot experience

1150
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:48,960
physics there is no way in which the

1151
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:51,280
physical world can be experienced from

1152
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:56,230
so

1153
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,160
wouldn't that mean then that there's no

1154
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:01,440
knowledge of the physics possible then

1155
00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:03,920
no that's that's uh what it means

1156
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:05,680
we can have knowledge from first

1157
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,319
principles which means we can

1158
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:10,560
understand the way in which thinking

1159
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:12,240
could possibly happen which means

1160
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,560
understanding the realm of all languages

1161
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:16,240
in the way in which something could mean

1162
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:18,560
something that's one aspect so we have a

1163
00:41:24,069 --> 00:41:21,359
priori knowledge which is

1164
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:24,079
a category of ideas that we get by

1165
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:27,280
understanding how systems can

1166
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:29,040
be about other things you can understand

1167
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:30,640
how languages work

1168
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:33,760
and the other thing is that we can

1169
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:36,240
make observations and we can identify

1170
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:38,160
regularities and the observations and

1171
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:40,720
then using our understanding of first

1172
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:43,680
principles to get a notion of what the

1173
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:46,240
significance of these observables is

1174
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,680
and so i think it's a good

1175
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,839
simplification to say that we find

1176
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,599
regular patterns at our systemic

1177
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:55,280
interface and in these regular patterns

1178
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,319
we find

1179
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:59,040
um non-random ways to disassemble them

1180
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:01,040
and build them into hierarchies of

1181
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,109
um

1182
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:07,119
i don't know if

1183
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,200
i don't know i made myself clear what i

1184
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:10,640
was trying to get at

1185
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,520
are you

1186
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:13,520
maybe i i should ask a question first

1187
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:14,960
are you proposing that you can do

1188
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:17,200
physics at priori

1189
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:20,319
because that doesn't seem to be the case

1190
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,520
um

1191
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:23,280
we tried to do physics out prior that

1192
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:25,440
state cards project and it collapses you

1193
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,040
can't do physics out prior are you

1194
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:28,800
seeing as you said and then you said we

1195
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,520
can

1196
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,960
observe regularities which i think is

1197
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:32,640
what physics does but that means you're

1198
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:34,640
saying that regularities are really

1199
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:37,520
there um and then i guess the problem

1200
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:38,640
becomes

1201
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:40,160
uh uh

1202
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:42,960
what privileges those experiences of i

1203
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:45,040
mean i can have to use your analogy i

1204
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:47,359
can have regularities in my dream and i

1205
00:42:52,390 --> 00:42:49,839
don't take them to have given me

1206
00:42:53,589 --> 00:42:52,400
an account of how the world really is

1207
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:53,599
um

1208
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,800
but if i do say that regularities work

1209
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,440
um what is it about them that gets me

1210
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:02,000
outside of the simulation i'm worried

1211
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:03,280
about i'm worried about a problem of

1212
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:04,640
skepticism here i'm worried about a

1213
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:06,800
problem of right am i this is what you

1214
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:09,200
know this is what hume does he says well

1215
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,880
you know uh

1216
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:12,319
you've got all these regularities but

1217
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,240
those regularities are themselves only

1218
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,200
projected by the mind the causation is

1219
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,200
just association between

1220
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:21,200
ideas and experiences and therefore i

1221
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:23,440
really can't know the world

1222
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,119
and kant etc and so i guess

1223
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:29,760
i'm wondering if there seems to be a i

1224
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,960
mean

1225
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:33,200
to say things are a projection is to say

1226
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,640
that other things are real because it's

1227
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,480
a contrast term to say that everything

1228
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:38,000
is an illusion for example doesn't make

1229
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:39,200
any sense it's like saying everything's

1230
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:42,400
tall right um so i'm trying to get at

1231
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:45,359
what is like what surely we must have

1232
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:48,000
experiences that count as access to the

1233
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:50,720
real or else we are just locked inside

1234
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:53,040
an attorney an internal self-referential

1235
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:54,800
system that's what i'm that's what i'm

1236
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:56,880
asking

1237
00:44:02,710 --> 00:43:59,760
did that make sense um yes but let's

1238
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,720
start out with um one of these aspects

1239
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,800
there are several

1240
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:06,319
points that we i think would need to

1241
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,240
address and some of them are veritable

1242
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,400
rabbit holes so let's start out with the

1243
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:12,319
problem of skepticism

1244
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:14,560
personally i don't see skepticism as a

1245
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:16,960
problem because i think that

1246
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:19,040
when i am

1247
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:20,480
observing

1248
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:23,440
the trajectories that my mind can take

1249
00:44:27,829 --> 00:44:26,160
there is not usually many points where i

1250
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:27,839
open a door and go through and i cannot

1251
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:29,760
go back

1252
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,240
right it's not that i uh in the course

1253
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:34,880
of intellectual exploration uh go

1254
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,280
through one-way dwarves

1255
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,400
that i can see before and i say um

1256
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:42,800
i cannot come back this might exist in

1257
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:46,640
some religions so uh here is a wonderful

1258
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,160
delicious brain worm

1259
00:44:52,870 --> 00:44:50,400
you take it on and you can give it back

1260
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,880
in three weeks from now and ideologies

1261
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:54,720
uh usually work in such a way that they

1262
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:56,480
warp your mind in such a way that you

1263
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,319
get cut off from the rest of human

1264
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,560
thought space and you cannot come back

1265
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,800
and i i think that in the rational world

1266
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:04,960
this cannot happen so when you think

1267
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:06,160
rationally

1268
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:08,000
everything that you think is conditional

1269
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:09,359
on something else

1270
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:10,720
and so

1271
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,960
everything that is not impossible is

1272
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:14,240
possible

1273
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:19,119
things has to be disputed distributed

1274
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:20,480
according to the evidence that is

1275
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:21,920
available

1276
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,400
so uh the possibility that

1277
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:26,160
nothing exists in the way in which i

1278
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:27,920
perceive it and i don't exist and other

1279
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:29,839
people don't exist or only i exist and

1280
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,839
only other people exist is always a

1281
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:33,680
possibility and there is nothing scary

1282
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:34,960
about it and they don't need to be

1283
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:36,000
worried about it there are no

1284
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,440
assumptions that they need to make to

1285
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:39,280
avoid this so i never fall into this

1286
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,359
trap and never come back oh my god no

1287
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:43,680
it's not not a problem the possibility

1288
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:46,160
that there are no other people should be

1289
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:47,359
considered

1290
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:49,520
and i should see what observations

1291
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:51,200
suggest that this is the case and which

1292
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:53,680
observations speak against it and uh if

1293
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:55,280
i ever find out that there never been

1294
00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:57,119
other people why should i be surprised

1295
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:59,200
right it's i should consider this i

1296
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:00,720
should see how deep the rabbit hole goes

1297
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,560
there's nothing scary about it's not

1298
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:04,480
infinitely deep they're not infinitely

1299
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:06,079
many conclusions that i will draw from

1300
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,760
this this will not lock me in an

1301
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:09,520
inhospitable place of the intellectual

1302
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:12,400
universe if i consider this path so i

1303
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:13,920
would suggest basically consider the

1304
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:16,960
entire space of possibilities and uh the

1305
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,880
idea that there are other minds in the

1306
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:20,640
world that are constituted in a quite

1307
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,319
similar way to mine but have a larger

1308
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:24,160
diversity than some people might be

1309
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:25,839
willing to acknowledge at first glance

1310
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:27,760
and so on right this seems to be a good

1311
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,240
theory there seem to be other objects

1312
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:32,640
that look a lot like me in this mind and

1313
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:34,880
they seem to be like me the side effect

1314
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:36,480
of the regulation needs of the hairless

1315
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,480
monkey uh in the present universe and uh

1316
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:42,480
this so it's a good theory it gives good

1317
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:45,040
predictions it's a useful encoding of

1318
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:46,800
the patterns that are thrown at my

1319
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:48,720
systemic boundary

1320
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:51,760
and uh this there's another aspect to uh

1321
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:53,920
solipsism which is more an experiential

1322
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,640
one this is if you cannot perceive other

1323
00:46:59,510 --> 00:46:58,480
minds as minds based on the prayers that

1324
00:47:02,230 --> 00:46:59,520
you have

1325
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,240
most people don't learn a lot of wisdom

1326
00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:04,160
in their life and that their wisdom they

1327
00:47:07,910 --> 00:47:06,160
have is largely a structure that is

1328
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:07,920
innate to them they are lucky to be born

1329
00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:09,440
wise

1330
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,359
and they just converge in the

1331
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,000
observation of the world to more details

1332
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:16,240
in this structure and so only people

1333
00:47:20,550 --> 00:47:18,160
that are born unwise have difficulty to

1334
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:20,560
ever get to wisdom so we do learn new

1335
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:23,280
structure but largely the architecture

1336
00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:25,119
that we use to interpret the world seems

1337
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:26,079
to be

1338
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:27,680
something that is

1339
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:30,160
to a large degree innate that is mapped

1340
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:32,240
to the circumstances that our ancestors

1341
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:34,480
found themselves in in the world and

1342
00:47:38,069 --> 00:47:35,839
what we noticed for instance many

1343
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,079
europeans that live in the us

1344
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:39,839
have all these weird quirks in which

1345
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:41,280
they relate to the world that are the

1346
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,200
remnant of non-existent european

1347
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,440
societies that they're brought

1348
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,520
within their own minds and the structure

1349
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:49,680
that is built into their soul over many

1350
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,640
generations and now uh they try this in

1351
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,640
this very brutish and weird pioneer

1352
00:47:58,470 --> 00:47:56,640
society that is the us

1353
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,480
and many of these patterns don't make

1354
00:48:02,390 --> 00:48:00,480
sense and this is not just the case for

1355
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,400
europeans it's just for europeans i can

1356
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:03,839
notice and interpret these patterns

1357
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:05,760
better than for other cultures that are

1358
00:48:11,349 --> 00:48:09,040
part of this hodgepodge of the us

1359
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:11,359
and so it's very interesting to see that

1360
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:13,760
uh solipsism might be a property of some

1361
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,240
people i i sometimes think that our

1362
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:18,240
previous president has been a solipsist

1363
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:20,079
not in the sense that he is an evil

1364
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,359
person i think it's psychologically

1365
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:23,839
interesting that uh when he talks to

1366
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:26,640
other people his important criterion was

1367
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:28,160
always

1368
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:30,400
he can't say whatever he wants as long

1369
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:31,760
as he gets away with it and

1370
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:33,520
communication is a tool to get what he

1371
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,480
wants

1372
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:36,720
and it seems to be somewhat invariant in

1373
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:39,680
politics but he beelines for it right he

1374
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,599
is able to think outside of a box

1375
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:42,960
because he never acknowledged the

1376
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:44,960
existence of this box

1377
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:46,960
there is a certain prior that there are

1378
00:48:49,510 --> 00:48:48,720
other minds that he need to share truth

1379
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:49,520
with

1380
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:51,839
that is absent he can just say whatever

1381
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,359
he wants he's free to do this because

1382
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:55,040
there are no other people

1383
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:56,720
there's only something like an almost

1384
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,720
faceless audience that relates to him in

1385
00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:00,480
a particular way and that he relates to

1386
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:02,559
in a particular way that makes them fit

1387
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,319
for this particular role it was probably

1388
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:06,400
unwise to to make this

1389
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,760
tangent because they don't want to make

1390
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,359
a normative statement one way or the

1391
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:11,280
other about trump they just think that

1392
00:49:14,950 --> 00:49:13,440
he happens to be somebody that we all

1393
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,960
know and who's psychologically

1394
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,400
interesting because i think he might be

1395
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:18,559
as all-obsessed in an experiential

1396
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:19,839
functional not necessarily a

1397
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:22,480
philosophical sense

1398
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:23,680
so don't worry josh i'm not going to

1399
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:24,960
draw you into any kind of political

1400
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,559
debate around

1401
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:28,240
trump

1402
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:31,200
so that uh that would be uh unfair to

1403
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:32,640
you and unfair to the spirit in which

1404
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:34,960
you offered the example um

1405
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:37,280
now i i'm trying to think of what how to

1406
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:39,040
reply because you said about seven

1407
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:40,480
thousand really interesting things in

1408
00:49:45,030 --> 00:49:43,440
that last thing uh but one thing i i i

1409
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:45,040
seemed to pick up on

1410
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:47,599
uh was that

1411
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:48,640
you know

1412
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,359
reality seems to be determined by

1413
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:54,000
rational processes of making sense

1414
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,599
um which

1415
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:57,119
i mean and that's a classical kind of

1416
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:58,720
idealism that's sort of like hegelian

1417
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,960
idealism that ultimately the real is

1418
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,400
dependent on

1419
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:04,880
on the on the capacity for rationality

1420
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:07,520
and so rationally has to be as real as

1421
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:09,599
anything else because of that dependency

1422
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:10,880
relationship

1423
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,880
now the thing about that is rationality

1424
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:14,800
seems to be

1425
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:18,800
a quintessential mental property too um

1426
00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:19,839
and

1427
00:50:23,750 --> 00:50:21,680
does that mean

1428
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:23,760
that we don't have

1429
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:24,880
i mean

1430
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,480
you know you know you know this too i

1431
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:28,480
know you know again i've seen your talks

1432
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,240
you know the problems of deep time that

1433
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:32,480
idealism faces right the problem with

1434
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:34,960
deep time uh you know um there seems to

1435
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:36,640
be a significant difference between

1436
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:38,319
darwin discovering the theory of

1437
00:50:43,030 --> 00:50:41,200
evolution in 1859 process of rational

1438
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:43,040
reflection gathering the evidence and

1439
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,880
the process of evolution that actually

1440
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:46,800
led to darwin's existence right they

1441
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:48,319
have different they have different

1442
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:49,440
temporal

1443
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,880
spatial extensions et cetera and so

1444
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:54,480
the the problem

1445
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:01,430
when i'm talking about it that way

1446
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:05,200
doesn't that mean that i have to

1447
00:51:08,549 --> 00:51:07,599
take it that that rationality really

1448
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:08,559
exists

1449
00:51:12,950 --> 00:51:10,720
since my ability to

1450
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:12,960
determine what is real is dependent on

1451
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:15,040
my rational processes like you said

1452
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:16,559
better theories worth series making

1453
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:20,079
better sense uh etc etc and then that

1454
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:23,040
seems to indicate a very high level of

1455
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:25,680
organization at which things can be real

1456
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,240
rather than just

1457
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:30,720
what is typically taken to be

1458
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:33,760
the physical i take it that at least

1459
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:35,920
traditionally at least currently

1460
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:38,000
rationality is not part of the ontology

1461
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:40,319
of physics it's presupposed in the

1462
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:41,920
practice of physics but it's not part of

1463
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:44,640
the ontology um

1464
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,240
and so that that means it sounds to me

1465
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:50,400
either like you have a kind of strong

1466
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:53,040
idealism or because you brought this up

1467
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:54,640
as another possibility

1468
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:58,000
you see rationality as emerging perhaps

1469
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,760
out of intelligence and intelligence

1470
00:52:02,870 --> 00:52:01,760
emerging out of the behavior of the

1471
00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:02,880
brain

1472
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:05,200
but it wouldn't be an epiphany it could

1473
00:52:08,950 --> 00:52:06,800
not be given this argument at the

1474
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:08,960
phenomenal emergence rationality would

1475
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,640
have to be a real thing

1476
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:13,200
that really exists and really

1477
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:15,440
directs people's behavior in some

1478
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:17,280
fashion

1479
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:18,720
how does that land with you or have i

1480
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:21,520
misinterpreted you

1481
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:23,680
so we probably have to agree on what we

1482
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:25,680
mean by rationality

1483
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:27,520
to be able to disassemble this term a

1484
00:52:32,309 --> 00:52:29,040
little bit further

1485
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:32,319
typically it's the ability to uh reach a

1486
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:34,720
certain goal in which you have reason to

1487
00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:37,119
believe that these tools that you use

1488
00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:40,720
are suitable to get to that goal

1489
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:43,440
it's i i would add in in addition to the

1490
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,680
instrumentality aspect of rationality

1491
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:47,520
that rationality includes a capacity for

1492
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,880
self-correction

1493
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,400
uh so the system has to be able to

1494
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:52,880
correct itself as it's pursuing these

1495
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,880
goals and be able to seek out more

1496
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:56,160
reliable

1497
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,079
a means of achieving achieving those

1498
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,240
goals so the sit and so the system is

1499
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:02,000
inherently self-correcting

1500
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:03,520
which means in a very important way the

1501
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:05,200
system has to be self-transcending in

1502
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:07,200
some fashion it has to be able to exceed

1503
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:08,720
itself it has to be able to grow it has

1504
00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:10,720
to be able to develop so there's there's

1505
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:12,559
something but i see this all part of the

1506
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:13,839
uh

1507
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:15,200
i don't think that

1508
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:17,440
if you are in a suitably complex

1509
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:19,680
environment with complex tasks that you

1510
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:21,200
can be uh

1511
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:23,680
believe that your strategy is the only

1512
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,920
suitable one and doesn't need some kind

1513
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:27,440
of mechanism of self-correction so

1514
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:29,599
self-correction i think falls relatively

1515
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:32,000
early out of the instrumental notion

1516
00:53:35,430 --> 00:53:33,280
yeah i don't have any problem with that

1517
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:35,440
yeah i just want to i just wanted to

1518
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:36,800
point out that that's often not

1519
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:39,040
explicated in accounts of

1520
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:40,720
instrumentality so

1521
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,880
yeah go ahead but uh i don't think that

1522
00:53:47,750 --> 00:53:44,880
rationality in this sense is necessarily

1523
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:47,760
a thing that exists as an object

1524
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:51,520
but uh it exists as an archetype

1525
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:53,760
it exists as a strategy that i can

1526
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:57,440
specify from some basic desirables for

1527
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:00,000
any kind of system that is strategizing

1528
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:02,240
on solving a control problem in in a

1529
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:04,400
complex world

1530
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:05,440
so

1531
00:54:09,589 --> 00:54:07,599
basically if you have a system that is

1532
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:09,599
has the ability to error correct on a

1533
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,400
deep level and that is able to discover

1534
00:54:16,870 --> 00:54:14,000
enough regularities in the world to

1535
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:16,880
notice its own existence in the world

1536
00:54:19,829 --> 00:54:17,680
then

1537
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:19,839
the system as soon as it's able to

1538
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:21,839
evaluate the strategies that it applies

1539
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:23,599
to make sense of the world will discover

1540
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:26,000
rationality as an option

1541
00:54:28,950 --> 00:54:26,880
and

1542
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:28,960
there are not that many alternatives to

1543
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:32,079
it and when you think about uh how to be

1544
00:54:37,109 --> 00:54:34,720
an a rational idealist

1545
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:37,119
right if you are a deep idealist can you

1546
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,280
afford to be rational there is in some

1547
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:41,200
sense two possibilities in which you are

1548
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:43,920
an idealist one is an idealist that is

1549
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:45,680
willing to deal with the french problem

1550
00:54:49,349 --> 00:54:48,079
of idealism like why is there regularity

1551
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:49,359
in there and where does the dream come

1552
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:50,720
from

1553
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:53,520
and the alternative is mysterianism

1554
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:55,680
and mysterianism is a position in

1555
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:57,520
cognitive science that is held by

1556
00:55:01,750 --> 00:54:59,520
several people mysterianism basically

1557
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:01,760
says that something cannot be understood

1558
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:03,119
if it cannot be understood by norm

1559
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:05,599
chomsky

1560
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:06,720
and uh

1561
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:09,359
not surprisingly uh chomsky himself is a

1562
00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:12,480
mysterionist about consciousness

1563
00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:13,280
uh

1564
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:18,640
yeah i i think again it does similar

1565
00:55:22,630 --> 00:55:20,880
things yeah uh

1566
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,640
for me before we uh i don't want to get

1567
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:24,079
too far feel about this i think there's

1568
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:27,280
equivocation around uh

1569
00:55:30,630 --> 00:55:28,559
miserianism

1570
00:55:32,829 --> 00:55:30,640
uh it invokes uh i think a

1571
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:32,839
non-controversial notion of epistemic

1572
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:35,280
boundedness like every other organism

1573
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:36,720
it's highly probable we are

1574
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:38,319
epistemically bounded

1575
00:55:43,270 --> 00:55:39,839
um and then it claims we're

1576
00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:43,280
epistemically bounded with respect uh to

1577
00:55:46,870 --> 00:55:44,720
um

1578
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,880
to the mind like

1579
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,400
having a mind doesn't mean that the mind

1580
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:50,640
is capable of explaining itself uh and

1581
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:52,160
and that of course is i i don't think

1582
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:54,240
chimps will ever generate a theory

1583
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:56,640
explaining their own cognition etc i

1584
00:56:02,150 --> 00:55:58,400
think that's non-controversial the

1585
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,160
problem um is the specific argument um

1586
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,160
saying that that is actually occurring

1587
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:06,799
in our attempts to solve consciousness

1588
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:10,480
or intelligence etc so i think i

1589
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:12,000
well i agree about

1590
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,760
the egocentrism of some of the arguments

1591
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,280
that you've pointed to i think there's

1592
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:17,599
also a deep equivocation there between

1593
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:19,599
uh different senses of epistemic

1594
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:21,359
boundedness that hasn't been

1595
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:23,119
sort of properly worked out very

1596
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:25,040
carefully of course i think like i said

1597
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:26,000
in one sense it's got to be

1598
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:28,400
non-controversial i think that we're

1599
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:30,000
epistemically bounded even younger

1600
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:32,079
versions of myself were epistemically

1601
00:56:36,789 --> 00:56:34,000
bounded with respect to these uh

1602
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:36,799
problems and questions the idea is how

1603
00:56:40,710 --> 00:56:39,119
do i know how do i distinguish between

1604
00:56:42,309 --> 00:56:40,720
epistemic boundedness that is sort of

1605
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:42,319
hardwired into me

1606
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:43,760
cultural epistemic boundedness

1607
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:45,680
historical epistemic boundedness

1608
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:46,799
developmental

1609
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:50,079
epistemic boundedness and so i i find

1610
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:52,160
that that whole argument

1611
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:54,000
um sort of deeply confused because

1612
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:56,160
there's a lot of equivocation going on

1613
00:57:00,150 --> 00:56:57,599
so i take it that you don't like it

1614
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:00,160
either so um

1615
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:01,760
well i think it's it's maybe an

1616
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:04,160
unhelpful notion because uh in the way

1617
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,400
in which the term is constructed it

1618
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:08,400
suggests that there is indeed a hard

1619
00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:09,680
bound

1620
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:12,000
and the question is is is this a useful

1621
00:57:16,710 --> 00:57:13,760
way to think about the way in which my

1622
00:57:19,030 --> 00:57:16,720
experience works so maybe uh chimpanzees

1623
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:19,040
are just stupid people and uh because

1624
00:57:22,990 --> 00:57:20,880
they have a very short childhood so they

1625
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:23,000
uh before their brain loses

1626
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:24,799
neuroplasticity and at all the

1627
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:26,400
respective levels where they would be

1628
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:28,319
able to form concepts it already

1629
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:31,440
solidifies and they're not able to make

1630
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:33,040
sense of the world at dessert beyond a

1631
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:34,880
certain depth because it's for them

1632
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,040
difficult to focus on these ideas for

1633
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:39,920
long enough and uh to build

1634
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,160
suitable representations about them and

1635
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:44,160
a similar thing happens with people most

1636
00:57:47,829 --> 00:57:46,160
people are unable to focus on an idea

1637
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:47,839
for more than 20 minutes if it's not

1638
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:50,640
related to their uh social or erotic

1639
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:51,680
success

1640
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:52,799
and

1641
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:53,599
so

1642
00:57:58,069 --> 00:57:55,920
you need very weird people that are able

1643
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:58,079
to focus on certain ideas for very very

1644
00:58:01,990 --> 00:58:00,319
long and then we already die after a few

1645
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:02,000
decades uh

1646
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:04,079
it's uh does this imply that there is a

1647
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:07,119
higher epidemic bound probably not

1648
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:09,440
and there could be a harder epistemic

1649
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:12,240
bound that is we can figure out um

1650
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:15,200
by the timing characteristics how many

1651
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:17,119
layers our brain effectively has our

1652
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:18,799
brain is not organized in need layers

1653
00:58:23,910 --> 00:58:21,599
it's recurrent and so on but still

1654
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,920
it seems to be difficult for us to hold

1655
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:25,680
thoughts beyond a certain length or

1656
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:27,760
construct thoughts beyond a certain

1657
00:58:31,589 --> 00:58:29,760
length it's for most people very

1658
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:31,599
difficult to hold a thought in their

1659
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:34,880
mind stable that is longer than a few

1660
00:58:38,710 --> 00:58:37,119
tens of seconds and some people are able

1661
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:38,720
to hold the thoughts stable in their

1662
00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:41,280
mind that takes a few hours but this

1663
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:43,359
means uninterrupted focus on this

1664
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:44,400
thought

1665
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:47,119
and so if you think about how many

1666
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:49,599
oscillations can you fit into such a

1667
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:50,559
thought

1668
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:53,119
is is the level of complexity that this

1669
00:58:57,670 --> 00:58:55,280
model has sufficient to understand

1670
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:57,680
foundational physics for instance and it

1671
00:59:02,230 --> 00:58:59,839
could be that uh foundational physics

1672
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:02,240
poses a few questions that are close to

1673
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:04,240
the boundary of what we can integrate

1674
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:06,799
all at once and that we need machines to

1675
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:09,680
extend our mind to keep the thought

1676
00:59:14,069 --> 00:59:11,920
stable and detailed for long enough

1677
00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:14,079
i think it is unfair to expect from

1678
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:15,599
descartes that he is able to solve

1679
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,359
foundational physics because there were

1680
00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:19,520
many fundamental insights that were not

1681
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,920
available to him that were not part of

1682
00:59:26,069 --> 00:59:23,920
uh what he had time to figure out by

1683
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:26,079
himself and uh that were not available

1684
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:28,799
to him in books and ideas around him he

1685
00:59:33,109 --> 00:59:31,280
largely still lived in a euclidean

1686
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:33,119
universe in which the objects were very

1687
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,000
large

1688
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:36,240
and in which it was not apparent how to

1689
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:38,079
build more simple automata over which

1690
00:59:42,309 --> 00:59:40,000
the complexity of

1691
00:59:44,470 --> 00:59:42,319
the three-dimensional approximately

1692
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:44,480
three-dimensional euclidean world or

1693
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:47,119
space-time later on would emerge

1694
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,400
so

1695
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,799
in this time there was no way to go to

1696
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:52,640
uh to understand the emergence of

1697
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:54,160
physics from something that is more

1698
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,640
simple and closer to first principles

1699
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:58,079
and i think this is only just now

1700
01:00:01,589 --> 01:00:00,000
happening

1701
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:01,599
that i i think

1702
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:04,000
that's what i was trying to say

1703
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,400
and issues of epistemic boundedness are

1704
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,240
mixing up and confusing together

1705
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:10,319
biological issues cultural issues

1706
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:13,119
historical issues yes right so maybe

1707
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:14,880
epistemic boundaries is not a thing so

1708
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:17,359
that was my point uh so it might exist

1709
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:20,319
approximately but uh if you treat it as

1710
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,079
that oh my god there's this boundary

1711
01:00:26,630 --> 01:00:23,760
there it is there is the wall that

1712
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:26,640
separates us uh from um

1713
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:28,400
from the next country and we will never

1714
01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:30,480
be able to cross it because this is uh

1715
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:32,640
for some a natural law the reason in

1716
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,559
which human minds have to be constructed

1717
01:00:37,829 --> 01:00:36,240
i am not sure if you can actually make

1718
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:37,839
that claim if you can prove that there

1719
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,280
is a boundary that we need to run

1720
01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:41,520
against well this is hegel's argument

1721
01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:44,079
and maybe i can use that to circle back

1722
01:00:46,870 --> 01:00:45,440
because hegel's argument is you can

1723
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:46,880
actually only uh

1724
01:00:51,109 --> 01:00:48,880
uh talk about a limit if you have the

1725
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,119
capacity to exceed it uh it doesn't make

1726
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:53,680
any sense to say from just this side

1727
01:00:58,630 --> 01:00:55,040
that there's a limit

1728
01:01:00,870 --> 01:00:58,640
so there are boundaries uh one is

1729
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:00,880
there is loops theorem which says that a

1730
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:02,799
system basically cannot make statements

1731
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,559
uh about something outside of itself

1732
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:08,079
also the way in which griddle for

1733
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:09,760
instance talks about the whole of

1734
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:11,359
mathematics and these properties of

1735
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:13,119
mathematics works by building an

1736
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,599
automaton that reconstructs the whole of

1737
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:17,280
mathematics that he wants to talk about

1738
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:19,680
from first principles so it talks about

1739
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,040
something that is contained in the

1740
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:23,280
system if i want to talk about the whole

1741
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:24,480
of mathematics

1742
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,000
i have to talk about it by

1743
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:28,160
reconstructing it from first principles

1744
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:29,920
if i cannot make such a definition i

1745
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:32,319
don't know what i'm talking about right

1746
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,400
so the world that i am talking about is

1747
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:35,839
one that i need to construct in the

1748
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:38,000
first place and i'm not able to talk

1749
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:39,760
about something that exists outside of

1750
01:01:43,829 --> 01:01:42,160
these constructions unless i can prove

1751
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:43,839
that i have constructed things in the

1752
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,680
only possible way

1753
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:47,280
which means i have to make statements

1754
01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:48,880
about the possible nature of language

1755
01:01:52,950 --> 01:01:51,040
itself so this is one of the boundaries

1756
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:52,960
that i can run into

1757
01:01:57,510 --> 01:01:54,160
and

1758
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:57,520
the other one is has to do with uh

1759
01:02:03,109 --> 01:01:59,920
the problem of the access to

1760
01:02:05,030 --> 01:02:03,119
of the universe itself and this is much

1761
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,040
more um

1762
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,440
obvious to people then live theory even

1763
01:02:10,710 --> 01:02:08,880
though it's related

1764
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,720
you cannot exclude the possibility that

1765
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:11,920
for instance that you could be a brain

1766
01:02:15,670 --> 01:02:13,839
in the vet some philosophers have tried

1767
01:02:17,829 --> 01:02:15,680
to do this but there are slate of hands

1768
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:17,839
and wishful thinking

1769
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:20,960
there is no way that you and me cannot

1770
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:22,240
know beforehand of whether we are

1771
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:23,760
currently in

1772
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:25,839
some kind of weird dream from which we

1773
01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:28,160
wake up in the next moment and realize

1774
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:30,720
oh my god this actually didn't happen it

1775
01:02:35,030 --> 01:02:33,599
was a fake memory this uh was not true

1776
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:35,040
this is not a description of the

1777
01:02:39,589 --> 01:02:37,280
physical universe this was just a weird

1778
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:39,599
illusion that i had in a night dream but

1779
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:41,359
there is no way in which we can in

1780
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:43,920
principle exclude this possibility there

1781
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:46,160
is only ways in which we can

1782
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:48,240
deal with the probabilities based on our

1783
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:51,200
past experiences but uh if we have never

1784
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:52,720
experienced a certain thing before in

1785
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:54,960
this fundamental way for instance after

1786
01:03:01,030 --> 01:02:58,559
i had a long surgery for eight hours i

1787
01:03:03,109 --> 01:03:01,040
had extremely lucid dreams that had uh

1788
01:03:05,030 --> 01:03:03,119
that were so intense that i could not in

1789
01:03:07,109 --> 01:03:05,040
the intensity distinguish them from

1790
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:07,119
daytime experiences

1791
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:09,119
and it was because of the narcotics that

1792
01:03:12,789 --> 01:03:10,640
were still in my bloodstream and i never

1793
01:03:14,230 --> 01:03:12,799
had experiences like that before

1794
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:14,240
of course these experiences were just

1795
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:16,000
brain states they had nothing prophetic

1796
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:17,839
about this this was not an alternate

1797
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:19,760
universe that i was dropping in but the

1798
01:03:24,950 --> 01:03:22,240
experiential qualities were very similar

1799
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:24,960
and i so my argument is that you can not

1800
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:26,559
possibly make such a distinction

1801
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:28,160
beforehand and that's why you can also

1802
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:29,920
not exclude the possibility of

1803
01:03:33,990 --> 01:03:31,760
skepticism and this is one of the

1804
01:03:35,750 --> 01:03:34,000
boundaries of what we can be achieving

1805
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:35,760
as a mind we cannot rely on our own

1806
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:37,039
coherence

1807
01:03:43,589 --> 01:03:40,960
in a fundamental sense we always have to

1808
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:43,599
hope and pray that the world

1809
01:03:49,430 --> 01:03:45,920
remains as coherent as it appears to me

1810
01:03:55,589 --> 01:03:53,430
so that that gets i that um

1811
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:55,599
that gets me back to the point

1812
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:58,400
that realness seems to be bound

1813
01:04:03,430 --> 01:04:00,559
uh to some normative notion of

1814
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:03,440
rationality you've invoked a priori a

1815
01:04:07,029 --> 01:04:04,720
couple times

1816
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:07,039
uh the problem with that priori is again

1817
01:04:10,829 --> 01:04:08,559
that hasn't been stable what khan

1818
01:04:14,630 --> 01:04:10,839
thought was that priori and he

1819
01:04:17,510 --> 01:04:14,640
famously um positive the opera ri right

1820
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:17,520
as central um you know many people don't

1821
01:04:22,549 --> 01:04:20,319
agree with his set uh uh our priority

1822
01:04:24,150 --> 01:04:22,559
that you know that logic that that logic

1823
01:04:25,349 --> 01:04:24,160
is aristotelian logic there's many

1824
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:25,359
logicians that say no that's not the

1825
01:04:28,069 --> 01:04:26,910
only possible logic

1826
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:28,079
[Music]

1827
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:30,799
euclidean geometry is the only geometry

1828
01:04:37,589 --> 01:04:34,799
that's not true etc um and so again it

1829
01:04:41,029 --> 01:04:37,599
seems that even the app priori is

1830
01:04:42,870 --> 01:04:41,039
dependent on these more basic processes

1831
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:42,880
of how we

1832
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:45,200
think everything's hangs together how

1833
01:04:49,029 --> 01:04:47,039
everything is intelligible how it all

1834
01:04:52,309 --> 01:04:49,039
makes sense to us

1835
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:52,319
and for me that um

1836
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:53,520
that's the thing i really want to

1837
01:04:59,109 --> 01:04:54,559
understand

1838
01:05:03,430 --> 01:04:59,119
how and why

1839
01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:03,440
um we find the universe intelligible

1840
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:06,000
and if we're justified in doing so and

1841
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:07,920
then how does that relate to

1842
01:05:12,309 --> 01:05:10,160
intelligence and consciousness

1843
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:12,319
that's the sort of that's the issue

1844
01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:14,240
and i take it that there are sort of

1845
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,240
certain central problems

1846
01:05:20,829 --> 01:05:18,160
and that go back to

1847
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:20,839
um this fundamental act of

1848
01:05:24,309 --> 01:05:22,720
interpretation uh which is what are you

1849
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:24,319
going to pay attention to how long

1850
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,920
you're going to pay attention to it how

1851
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:27,280
much importance are you going to give to

1852
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:28,480
it how are you going to prioritize one

1853
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:31,920
thing over another um etc

1854
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:33,359
and

1855
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:35,280
interestingly enough these are kind of a

1856
01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:37,359
lot of the contending candidates for

1857
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:40,559
theories of what attention is um and i

1858
01:05:45,109 --> 01:05:42,559
know you put a lot of

1859
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:45,119
centrality on attention in your meant in

1860
01:05:48,829 --> 01:05:46,400
your

1861
01:05:52,710 --> 01:05:48,839
model of consciousness

1862
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:52,720
um and so i'm very interested and i talk

1863
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:54,640
about this process

1864
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:57,599
by which we attend to things

1865
01:06:01,829 --> 01:05:59,119
in the right way

1866
01:06:04,230 --> 01:06:01,839
so that we're capable of making

1867
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:04,240
um intelligible sense of our experience

1868
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:06,640
in a way that gives us some

1869
01:06:10,230 --> 01:06:08,000
good reason i'm not saying

1870
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:10,240
demonstratively certain but some good

1871
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:11,680
reason it could be probabilistic if you

1872
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:12,720
want

1873
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:15,920
for saying x is real and y is not

1874
01:06:19,750 --> 01:06:17,359
um because

1875
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:19,760
if we can't do that if we can't make

1876
01:06:23,670 --> 01:06:21,200
those basic kinds of distinctions we

1877
01:06:25,349 --> 01:06:23,680
can't do science itself and then a lot

1878
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:25,359
of the data that we're using to make our

1879
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:27,280
arguments falls through the bottom

1880
01:06:32,230 --> 01:06:29,599
because we have no ontological ground

1881
01:06:33,190 --> 01:06:32,240
for science itself

1882
01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:33,200
so

1883
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:35,680
i'm very interested in exactly those

1884
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:39,039
kinds of fundamental issues

1885
01:06:40,950 --> 01:06:39,839
of

1886
01:06:42,870 --> 01:06:40,960
how

1887
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:42,880
so for me

1888
01:06:48,309 --> 01:06:46,240
the problem of consciousness ultimately

1889
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:48,319
is bound up with the problem of

1890
01:06:54,309 --> 01:06:51,200
intelligence the problem of making sense

1891
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:54,319
but those are not just psychological

1892
01:06:59,829 --> 01:06:55,920
problems they are ultimately

1893
01:07:01,990 --> 01:06:59,839
epistemological ontological problems and

1894
01:07:03,510 --> 01:07:02,000
answering them together i think is

1895
01:07:05,430 --> 01:07:03,520
something well that's what i'm trying to

1896
01:07:06,470 --> 01:07:05,440
do with you here now i'm trying to get

1897
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:06,480
um

1898
01:07:09,829 --> 01:07:08,000
how it is

1899
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:09,839
that i'm trying to get your model of

1900
01:07:14,309 --> 01:07:12,640
ontology um and

1901
01:07:17,029 --> 01:07:14,319
where because you you do you have to

1902
01:07:18,630 --> 01:07:17,039
rely on judgment so like you went back

1903
01:07:20,230 --> 01:07:18,640
uh it's only a projection there's not

1904
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:20,240
really a face there

1905
01:07:24,630 --> 01:07:22,079
that's a that's a positing of what's

1906
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:24,640
real versus not real

1907
01:07:32,870 --> 01:07:32,069
is your account

1908
01:07:36,309 --> 01:07:32,880
of

1909
01:07:39,109 --> 01:07:36,319
rationality bound up with your account

1910
01:07:42,870 --> 01:07:39,119
of consciousness and intelligence it

1911
01:07:44,549 --> 01:07:42,880
seems like it is um and doesn't that

1912
01:07:46,390 --> 01:07:44,559
mean therefore that we have to posit a

1913
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:46,400
certain kind of realness

1914
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:48,160
to intelligence and consciousness the

1915
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:50,480
way we have to for rationality because

1916
01:07:55,990 --> 01:07:53,440
rationality is how we determine what's

1917
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:56,000
real in the world again i acknowledge

1918
01:07:58,470 --> 01:07:57,760
with you i'm not saying that i can do

1919
01:08:01,109 --> 01:07:58,480
that

1920
01:08:03,029 --> 01:08:01,119
uh you know with any kind of certainty

1921
01:08:05,190 --> 01:08:03,039
but nevertheless i have to be able to do

1922
01:08:06,789 --> 01:08:05,200
it in some kind of fashion i have to be

1923
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:06,799
able to make judgments about real versus

1924
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:09,440
not real in order to be generating the

1925
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:11,680
kind of data we're both using when we're

1926
01:08:16,950 --> 01:08:13,520
talking here right now

1927
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:16,960
so here's the argument in a nutshell

1928
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:19,279
it seems that what's real depends on

1929
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:21,839
what's rational and being rational seems

1930
01:08:25,510 --> 01:08:22,799
to

1931
01:08:26,630 --> 01:08:25,520
require some kind of self-awareness

1932
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:26,640
not

1933
01:08:32,630 --> 01:08:28,719
some kind of consciousness and rational

1934
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:32,640
seems to also uh require some kind of

1935
01:08:37,269 --> 01:08:35,920
basic ability to be intelligent

1936
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:37,279
uh to

1937
01:08:42,070 --> 01:08:39,279
find certain things relevant rather than

1938
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:42,080
others to pay attention to here uh to

1939
01:08:47,269 --> 01:08:44,080
see the relevance of certain acts to

1940
01:08:50,950 --> 01:08:48,709
and doesn't that mean therefore that

1941
01:08:54,070 --> 01:08:50,960
consciousness and

1942
01:08:55,110 --> 01:08:54,080
intelligence and rationality are just as

1943
01:08:57,430 --> 01:08:55,120
real

1944
01:09:03,269 --> 01:08:57,440
as anything else that we posit to be

1945
01:09:08,950 --> 01:09:06,070
the question is what is real and it's a

1946
01:09:10,870 --> 01:09:08,960
it's a tricky question it's one question

1947
01:09:13,430 --> 01:09:10,880
yes uh

1948
01:09:15,430 --> 01:09:13,440
the property of ex being experientially

1949
01:09:16,789 --> 01:09:15,440
real requires i think that it needs to

1950
01:09:19,110 --> 01:09:16,799
be in our mind

1951
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:19,120
so uh there is no way in which you can

1952
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:20,960
wake up from the dream in your mind and

1953
01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:22,640
still exist because

1954
01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:23,920
out there in physics you are not

1955
01:09:27,590 --> 01:09:25,440
conscious neurons are not conscious

1956
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:27,600
brains are not conscious physical

1957
01:09:31,189 --> 01:09:29,440
apparatuses are not conscious you need

1958
01:09:33,990 --> 01:09:31,199
to be inside of that dream

1959
01:09:36,149 --> 01:09:34,000
so if you ever transcend the dream

1960
01:09:37,829 --> 01:09:36,159
you will not be there the experience of

1961
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:37,839
waking up is something that you dream

1962
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:39,839
you can only

1963
01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:41,920
experience waking up while you are still

1964
01:09:45,269 --> 01:09:43,920
in a dream

1965
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:45,279
and so

1966
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:47,040
you're not going to wake up in some any

1967
01:09:49,669 --> 01:09:48,799
kind of reality

1968
01:09:51,510 --> 01:09:49,679
and

1969
01:09:53,110 --> 01:09:51,520
there is this big question why there is

1970
01:09:55,830 --> 01:09:53,120
something rather than nothing it seems

1971
01:09:57,590 --> 01:09:55,840
to be hard to deny that something exists

1972
01:09:59,510 --> 01:09:57,600
and it's difficult to figure out how

1973
01:10:01,189 --> 01:09:59,520
it's possible that there is something

1974
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:01,199
rather than nothing

1975
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:04,560
and the easiest explanation that uh

1976
01:10:07,750 --> 01:10:06,719
the foundational physicists that i've so

1977
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:07,760
far been

1978
01:10:13,189 --> 01:10:10,880
talked to have come up with is is

1979
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:13,199
always the same

1980
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:15,440
so and rather than positioning that for

1981
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:18,000
some funny reason something exists and

1982
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:20,239
all the other things do not exist

1983
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:23,920
uh maybe existence is the default

1984
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:24,960
so

1985
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:30,880
as our intuition says that

1986
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:32,640
basically nothing exists by itself by

1987
01:10:36,149 --> 01:10:34,480
default and then something needs to be

1988
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:36,159
brought into existence somehow from

1989
01:10:40,310 --> 01:10:38,159
first principles the an easier

1990
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:40,320
explanation is to reduce this depth is

1991
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:42,640
to say that well just everything exists

1992
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:45,120
and we have to now explain why something

1993
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:47,679
don't seem to be the case

1994
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,679
and so what would it mean for something

1995
01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:51,840
to exist in in my understanding for

1996
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,280
something to exist it needs to be

1997
01:10:58,149 --> 01:10:55,679
implemented

1998
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:58,159
and i i would say that

1999
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,320
many things only exist to an approximate

2000
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:01,600
degree

2001
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:04,480
so for instance um this cup here exists

2002
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:06,880
to a very good approximate degree right

2003
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:08,960
it's a certain idea that i can project

2004
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:10,560
consistently in the universe that gives

2005
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:12,560
me certain affordances and it's stable

2006
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:13,760
for a pretty long time and there are

2007
01:11:17,510 --> 01:11:15,440
well-defined conditions for the most

2008
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:17,520
part for when this model falls apart and

2009
01:11:20,950 --> 01:11:20,159
i can no longer treat this as a cup

2010
01:11:23,030 --> 01:11:20,960
and

2011
01:11:25,110 --> 01:11:23,040
for instance when it breaks or when my

2012
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:25,120
ability to interact with it breaks or

2013
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:27,280
when the local physical continuum breaks

2014
01:11:31,030 --> 01:11:28,960
in such a way that the parts no longer

2015
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:31,040
neatly assemble into a cup and so on

2016
01:11:34,229 --> 01:11:32,800
right so there are certain boundary

2017
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:34,239
conditions where the cupness would no

2018
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:36,960
longer hold but for the most part the

2019
01:11:41,590 --> 01:11:39,679
cup is very stable if i take rationality

2020
01:11:44,470 --> 01:11:41,600
as an object become slightly more fishy

2021
01:11:45,590 --> 01:11:44,480
or if i take my own personal identity as

2022
01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:45,600
an object

2023
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:48,320
my own existence it becomes superficial

2024
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:49,600
because

2025
01:11:53,510 --> 01:11:51,840
to which degree do i really stably exist

2026
01:11:55,430 --> 01:11:53,520
and to which degree is this a fiction

2027
01:11:57,350 --> 01:11:55,440
that i conveniently maintain to be able

2028
01:12:00,390 --> 01:11:57,360
to reason about myself over extended

2029
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:00,400
time spans i think that i probably don't

2030
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:02,560
exist in to the same

2031
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:05,280
degree of solidity as the cup exists i'm

2032
01:12:08,950 --> 01:12:07,280
much more approximate i'm much more like

2033
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:08,960
a voice in the wind blowing through the

2034
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:10,000
mountains

2035
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:12,560
my existence is much more virtual and

2036
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:13,440
vague

2037
01:12:16,950 --> 01:12:15,440
and approximate than the existence of

2038
01:12:19,270 --> 01:12:16,960
the cup itself

2039
01:12:21,189 --> 01:12:19,280
if i go back to this notion of why there

2040
01:12:22,950 --> 01:12:21,199
is something rather than nothing and all

2041
01:12:25,430 --> 01:12:22,960
these things that can be implemented

2042
01:12:27,030 --> 01:12:25,440
exist that cup is implemented in physics

2043
01:12:28,950 --> 01:12:27,040
to uh to a

2044
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:28,960
tighter degree than i am implemented in

2045
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:31,199
physics i'm much more approximately

2046
01:12:35,110 --> 01:12:33,120
implemented

2047
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:35,120
i would say that

2048
01:12:39,270 --> 01:12:37,040
what can be implemented are ultimately

2049
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:39,280
finite automata it's also the only part

2050
01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:41,760
of mathematics that works that's

2051
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,080
the implication of goodwill's discovery

2052
01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:46,080
that we have to go away from stateless

2053
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:48,000
mathematics and instead what we get are

2054
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,800
automata and we cannot define infinity

2055
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:52,560
without running into contradictions in

2056
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:55,199
the languages in which we do it

2057
01:12:58,630 --> 01:12:56,400
you mentioned that there are many

2058
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:58,640
different ways to define logic and

2059
01:13:02,550 --> 01:13:00,719
different logics ultimately they come

2060
01:13:04,630 --> 01:13:02,560
down to the same thing that was also

2061
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:04,640
part of this big discovery that we made

2062
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:07,120
in the 20th century that all the ways in

2063
01:13:11,270 --> 01:13:09,199
which we can define logic and

2064
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:11,280
computation and so on are

2065
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:12,560
the same

2066
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:16,640
so the turing machine and the post

2067
01:13:21,510 --> 01:13:18,719
machine and the lambda calculus and the

2068
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:21,520
combinators and boolean logic

2069
01:13:25,830 --> 01:13:24,400
and specific programming languages and

2070
01:13:27,750 --> 01:13:25,840
the different approaches to define

2071
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:27,760
constructive mathematics turn out to be

2072
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:29,760
equivalent

2073
01:13:33,110 --> 01:13:31,040
there are some

2074
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:33,120
tight small elements at the boundaries

2075
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:35,040
and so on where we could uh get into

2076
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:37,520
debates but by and large uh they

2077
01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:40,080
all turn out to be uh

2078
01:13:44,470 --> 01:13:42,080
this mappings between these systems and

2079
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:44,480
these mappings can all happen in

2080
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:47,280
polynomial time or in constant time

2081
01:13:51,910 --> 01:13:50,159
and uh so it's not so bad

2082
01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:51,920
the logic can be solved if you look at

2083
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:54,080
geometry there is not this question oh

2084
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:55,600
my god there is not just euclidean

2085
01:13:59,750 --> 01:13:57,679
geometry but there's also non-euclidean

2086
01:14:00,790 --> 01:13:59,760
geometry these are not fundamentally

2087
01:14:03,350 --> 01:14:00,800
different it's just that the

2088
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:03,360
non-occlusion geometry relaxes one of

2089
01:14:07,750 --> 01:14:05,840
the conditions which means the space in

2090
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:07,760
which geometry takes place doesn't need

2091
01:14:12,390 --> 01:14:10,080
to be flat the space can have curvature

2092
01:14:14,709 --> 01:14:12,400
or it can be we can go beyond this and

2093
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:14,719
it can be very irregular and so on and

2094
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:16,719
it turns out that geometry is the

2095
01:14:20,149 --> 01:14:19,280
mathematics of too many parts to count i

2096
01:14:22,070 --> 01:14:20,159
think

2097
01:14:25,189 --> 01:14:22,080
so as soon as we have too many parts to

2098
01:14:28,070 --> 01:14:25,199
count uh the way in which we can perform

2099
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:28,080
calculations is that we need to identify

2100
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:30,159
operators that converge in the limit

2101
01:14:34,310 --> 01:14:32,640
which means if you have trillions of

2102
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:34,320
parts and you add one more part the

2103
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:36,159
result doesn't change perceptively in

2104
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:38,480
any way right and this is uh when you

2105
01:14:41,590 --> 01:14:39,840
have something where you converge

2106
01:14:43,669 --> 01:14:41,600
approximately against infinity when you

2107
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:43,679
have approximate continuity

2108
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:46,080
and the set of operators that converge

2109
01:14:48,870 --> 01:14:47,360
in the limit when you have too many

2110
01:14:50,630 --> 01:14:48,880
parts to count this is practically what

2111
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:50,640
we mean by geometry

2112
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:53,280
so it's a particular way to model worlds

2113
01:14:57,189 --> 01:14:55,199
that are made of too many parts to keep

2114
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:57,199
track of the individual parts

2115
01:15:00,870 --> 01:14:59,120
and of course our brain is largely

2116
01:15:02,870 --> 01:15:00,880
confronted with the world at such a

2117
01:15:05,350 --> 01:15:02,880
level where there are too many atoms to

2118
01:15:06,709 --> 01:15:05,360
count too many molecules too many people

2119
01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:06,719
to count

2120
01:15:10,630 --> 01:15:08,320
too many uh

2121
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:10,640
dollars to count and so on and so we

2122
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:12,400
treat them as continuous values and we

2123
01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:13,840
look at the limit dynamics and we have

2124
01:15:19,590 --> 01:15:16,480
geometric models

2125
01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:19,600
um two points the the first is um i i'm

2126
01:15:24,149 --> 01:15:21,840
not going to make arguments about uh the

2127
01:15:26,229 --> 01:15:24,159
interrelations of logic i i was making

2128
01:15:28,070 --> 01:15:26,239
an argument that kant took something to

2129
01:15:30,229 --> 01:15:28,080
be a priori he didn't know everything

2130
01:15:32,870 --> 01:15:30,239
you just said and so his judgments about

2131
01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:32,880
what was the priority were incorrect um

2132
01:15:37,750 --> 01:15:34,800
it's plausible that uh

2133
01:15:39,910 --> 01:15:37,760
that's also the case for us um and so

2134
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:39,920
that's all i meant to say about that um

2135
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:42,640
i want to go back to the cup and me

2136
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:45,440
um or the cup and you um because it

2137
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:47,440
seems to me given your ontology and your

2138
01:15:51,030 --> 01:15:49,280
epistemology the cup is and i think

2139
01:15:54,070 --> 01:15:51,040
you're saying that the cup is a fiction

2140
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:54,080
as well um and so you're a fiction the

2141
01:15:58,310 --> 01:15:55,520
cup is a fiction

2142
01:15:59,830 --> 01:15:58,320
and yet the physics seems to not be

2143
01:16:03,110 --> 01:15:59,840
fictional for you

2144
01:16:05,750 --> 01:16:03,120
and yet i don't know how we get to the

2145
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:05,760
physics without objects like cops and

2146
01:16:11,189 --> 01:16:08,640
people like you and i uh the physics is

2147
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:11,199
generated by people like you and i using

2148
01:16:15,270 --> 01:16:13,280
instruments that are like microscopes

2149
01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:15,280
and whatever that are just like the cop

2150
01:16:20,070 --> 01:16:17,760
um and therefore

2151
01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:20,080
how do all these fictional beings using

2152
01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:22,880
fictional devices come up with the

2153
01:16:27,030 --> 01:16:25,760
physics that is really the case

2154
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:27,040
it seems to me

2155
01:16:32,870 --> 01:16:27,920
that

2156
01:16:34,630 --> 01:16:32,880
people doing the science are as as real

2157
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:34,640
as the science itself

2158
01:16:39,910 --> 01:16:37,199
um and that

2159
01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:39,920
would tend to say that the cup has a

2160
01:16:45,350 --> 01:16:42,880
kind of reality to it um

2161
01:16:47,350 --> 01:16:45,360
and you have a kind of reality to it

2162
01:16:49,590 --> 01:16:47,360
that are have to be assumed for the

2163
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:49,600
practice of physics itself that's that's

2164
01:16:53,590 --> 01:16:52,159
what i was trying to say now you may be

2165
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:53,600
saying

2166
01:16:56,229 --> 01:16:55,280
physics doesn't have an ontology for

2167
01:16:58,070 --> 01:16:56,239
cups

2168
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:58,080
i i totally get that

2169
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:00,640
what i'm saying is why should physics

2170
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:03,040
have the monopoly on our ontology what's

2171
01:17:08,070 --> 01:17:04,800
the argument for that given the

2172
01:17:10,630 --> 01:17:08,080
epistemology and the the psychology that

2173
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:10,640
you're advancing here it seems to me

2174
01:17:17,750 --> 01:17:13,360
like our ontology is much more rich

2175
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:17,760
than our current physics is capable of

2176
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,120
incorporating

2177
01:17:24,550 --> 01:17:21,120
that's what i'm trying to get at uh for

2178
01:17:26,550 --> 01:17:24,560
example um you you said you're not as

2179
01:17:28,390 --> 01:17:26,560
stable as the cop well you sort of have

2180
01:17:30,229 --> 01:17:28,400
to be i mean

2181
01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:30,239
there has to be a continuity in you

2182
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:31,520
there's a right

2183
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:33,600
as i move around the object it's not

2184
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:35,040
just that i have to find a continuity in

2185
01:17:39,590 --> 01:17:37,280
the object there has to be a continuity

2186
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:39,600
in me as a knower in order for the

2187
01:17:43,830 --> 01:17:42,480
stability of that object to be possible

2188
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:43,840
i also have to

2189
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:45,920
have some kind of continuity

2190
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:48,880
i again i'm trying to get at

2191
01:17:51,350 --> 01:17:50,320
well

2192
01:17:53,030 --> 01:17:51,360
because

2193
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:53,040
i'm sorry

2194
01:17:58,470 --> 01:17:55,920
we got into this and and maybe we both

2195
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,480
uh have taken each other too far afield

2196
01:18:02,550 --> 01:18:00,480
uh we got into this because i asked you

2197
01:18:04,470 --> 01:18:02,560
just like what you you

2198
01:18:07,270 --> 01:18:04,480
were dealing with uh you know the

2199
01:18:08,870 --> 01:18:07,280
dualism problem that descartes gave us

2200
01:18:10,630 --> 01:18:08,880
and then you said there isn't a problem

2201
01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:10,640
because it's all sort of

2202
01:18:13,830 --> 01:18:11,840
i heard you saying sort of all

2203
01:18:15,510 --> 01:18:13,840
constructed in the mind

2204
01:18:17,430 --> 01:18:15,520
but then if it's all constructed in the

2205
01:18:19,510 --> 01:18:17,440
mind so is all the things and all the

2206
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:19,520
tools by which we did the physics

2207
01:18:22,870 --> 01:18:21,199
like i would be

2208
01:18:24,709 --> 01:18:22,880
let's use your analogy

2209
01:18:26,310 --> 01:18:24,719
the physics i wouldn't trust the physics

2210
01:18:28,229 --> 01:18:26,320
i'm doing in a dream if i knew it was a

2211
01:18:30,870 --> 01:18:28,239
dream

2212
01:18:32,229 --> 01:18:30,880
and if i know it's a simulation which

2213
01:18:34,709 --> 01:18:32,239
you were claiming

2214
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:34,719
why should i trust the physics

2215
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:35,920
that are occurring within that

2216
01:18:42,310 --> 01:18:39,199
simulation it seems to me that there is

2217
01:18:44,630 --> 01:18:42,320
an ontology richer than physics that is

2218
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:44,640
needed in order to make the kind of

2219
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:46,960
arguments you're making

2220
01:18:51,350 --> 01:18:49,360
so uh first of all don't worry you don't

2221
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:51,360
need to apologize for taking us too far

2222
01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:52,960
afield that can take us back it's no

2223
01:18:57,430 --> 01:18:54,880
issue if we feel that we are going too

2224
01:18:58,390 --> 01:18:57,440
far out here there are two ways in which

2225
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,400
i can

2226
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:00,480
experience physics one is in a lucid

2227
01:19:04,870 --> 01:19:02,880
dream for instance i can test whether

2228
01:19:06,870 --> 01:19:04,880
i'm in dream or not usually for instance

2229
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:06,880
by operating a light switch i found that

2230
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,400
in lucid dreams light switches for the

2231
01:19:11,830 --> 01:19:10,080
most part don't work

2232
01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:11,840
it's a funny thing but they don't

2233
01:19:15,590 --> 01:19:14,159
another thing is when you read uh text

2234
01:19:17,270 --> 01:19:15,600
on a page

2235
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:17,280
it's difficult to read the same text

2236
01:19:19,830 --> 01:19:18,320
twice

2237
01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:19,840
you might have noticed this in dreams

2238
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:22,800
right and this seems to be a limitation

2239
01:19:26,950 --> 01:19:24,640
of the way in which our working memory

2240
01:19:29,189 --> 01:19:26,960
works so i suspect that the lucid dream

2241
01:19:31,430 --> 01:19:29,199
has to store all its state in working

2242
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:31,440
memory and the causal structure that is

2243
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:33,520
stable in the dream has to be held there

2244
01:19:38,870 --> 01:19:36,800
and as the limit to how many bits can be

2245
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:38,880
held in our working memory and as a

2246
01:19:43,830 --> 01:19:41,679
result the complexity of the physics

2247
01:19:45,030 --> 01:19:43,840
simulation in our own dream

2248
01:19:47,030 --> 01:19:45,040
is limited

2249
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:47,040
and this means that when we want to have

2250
01:19:50,470 --> 01:19:48,480
a physics simulation that is more

2251
01:19:52,790 --> 01:19:50,480
detailed we probably need to have state

2252
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,800
that is stored outside of our mind for

2253
01:19:55,510 --> 01:19:54,000
practical reasons it's not a

2254
01:19:58,149 --> 01:19:55,520
philosophical argument it's just

2255
01:20:00,229 --> 01:19:58,159
practical observation so if you uh want

2256
01:20:02,950 --> 01:20:00,239
to experience a world in which light

2257
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:02,960
switches work you need to store some

2258
01:20:07,430 --> 01:20:05,360
state outside of your working memory uh

2259
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:07,440
in in the in some substrate that is

2260
01:20:12,149 --> 01:20:09,440
outside of your mind and this could be a

2261
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:12,159
physical room so for practical purposes

2262
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:13,679
if you ever find yourself in the

2263
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:15,199
situation that you need to figure out

2264
01:20:18,630 --> 01:20:17,120
whether you are dreaming this or not you

2265
01:20:19,590 --> 01:20:18,640
could uh try

2266
01:20:21,669 --> 01:20:19,600
uh

2267
01:20:23,350 --> 01:20:21,679
to rely on processes the environment and

2268
01:20:25,510 --> 01:20:23,360
test for the existence of process

2269
01:20:27,270 --> 01:20:25,520
environment that you need to update a

2270
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,280
lot of state to be stable and you check

2271
01:20:30,870 --> 01:20:29,600
for the stability of the state of course

2272
01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:30,880
there could still be some kind of

2273
01:20:34,390 --> 01:20:32,480
conspiracy going on so this is not

2274
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:34,400
foolproof if an evil scientist is

2275
01:20:38,070 --> 01:20:36,480
messing with you then the evil scientist

2276
01:20:40,470 --> 01:20:38,080
might be able to change your memories of

2277
01:20:42,070 --> 01:20:40,480
what just happened and or might be

2278
01:20:44,390 --> 01:20:42,080
interjecting

2279
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:44,400
weird things in there but the question

2280
01:20:49,110 --> 01:20:45,679
that we want to answer on the other

2281
01:20:52,310 --> 01:20:49,120
level is is there a conspiracy going on

2282
01:20:54,630 --> 01:20:52,320
and the idea that is underlying physics

2283
01:20:56,630 --> 01:20:54,640
is not complicated assumptions about the

2284
01:21:00,630 --> 01:20:56,640
notion of energy time space and

2285
01:21:02,390 --> 01:21:00,640
causality and so on these are all uh

2286
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:02,400
things that we infer at some level

2287
01:21:06,550 --> 01:21:04,320
they're not assumptions that we need to

2288
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:06,560
presuppose to make physics work the

2289
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:07,520
basic

2290
01:21:12,070 --> 01:21:09,679
assumption in physics is maybe there is

2291
01:21:14,390 --> 01:21:12,080
no conspiracy

2292
01:21:16,470 --> 01:21:14,400
maybe this is just mechanical

2293
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:16,480
and we have to understand why that is

2294
01:21:21,510 --> 01:21:19,280
the case and uh the uh idealist

2295
01:21:24,790 --> 01:21:21,520
assumption is there is a conspiracy we

2296
01:21:26,870 --> 01:21:24,800
do live in a simulation and uh this uh

2297
01:21:27,910 --> 01:21:26,880
idealism is not solving anything in a

2298
01:21:29,910 --> 01:21:27,920
way that

2299
01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:29,920
physics is not solving it

2300
01:21:34,709 --> 01:21:32,159
you still have to if you want to explain

2301
01:21:36,310 --> 01:21:34,719
what's going on uh and make a claim that

2302
01:21:38,550 --> 01:21:36,320
you now understand how the universe

2303
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:38,560
works how that conspiracy could possibly

2304
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:39,360
work

2305
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:41,199
and explaining the conspiracy is

2306
01:21:45,830 --> 01:21:43,199
intrinsically harder

2307
01:21:47,110 --> 01:21:45,840
if you deny the possibility of any kind

2308
01:21:49,030 --> 01:21:47,120
of physics

2309
01:21:51,189 --> 01:21:49,040
and physics just being the mechanical

2310
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:51,199
explanation

2311
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:53,520
i'll come back to the point of i

2312
01:21:57,830 --> 01:21:55,760
i don't know if we infer certain things

2313
01:22:00,229 --> 01:21:57,840
or our inferences presuppose them we can

2314
01:22:02,470 --> 01:22:00,239
come back to that in a minute um

2315
01:22:03,910 --> 01:22:02,480
but but i mean we're in a position at

2316
01:22:06,149 --> 01:22:03,920
least that's what i hear you saying

2317
01:22:07,830 --> 01:22:06,159
different from descartes right person

2318
01:22:09,910 --> 01:22:07,840
being uh

2319
01:22:12,629 --> 01:22:09,920
you know beset by the dick the cartesian

2320
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:12,639
demon because

2321
01:22:16,310 --> 01:22:14,159
i hear you saying

2322
01:22:19,110 --> 01:22:16,320
i know that i'm in a simulation

2323
01:22:22,149 --> 01:22:19,120
which is precisely what can't happen so

2324
01:22:24,149 --> 01:22:22,159
i i i i agree i'm excluding

2325
01:22:25,590 --> 01:22:24,159
the the cartesian demon for because as

2326
01:22:29,189 --> 01:22:25,600
you say there's no way out of that that

2327
01:22:30,629 --> 01:22:29,199
well right if if i doubt my compa i'm

2328
01:22:32,390 --> 01:22:30,639
doubting whether or not my doubt is like

2329
01:22:34,390 --> 01:22:32,400
you can just fall forever and ever i get

2330
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:34,400
that i i'm not saying that

2331
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:36,080
what i'm saying is though but you you

2332
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:38,400
we're we're not in that

2333
01:23:05,030 --> 01:22:39,199
i

2334
01:23:08,390 --> 01:23:05,040
what's real because that would be the

2335
01:23:11,510 --> 01:23:08,400
only thing i could use to contrast uh

2336
01:23:13,510 --> 01:23:11,520
with like my subjective experience right

2337
01:23:15,030 --> 01:23:13,520
in order to say i know that i'm inside

2338
01:23:16,149 --> 01:23:15,040
something i have to be able to give you

2339
01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:16,159
good reason for believing there's

2340
01:23:20,629 --> 01:23:17,840
something outside of me

2341
01:23:22,709 --> 01:23:20,639
right and that that that outside of me

2342
01:23:24,790 --> 01:23:22,719
also has to have access

2343
01:23:27,430 --> 01:23:24,800
um i'm not saying direct access i'm not

2344
01:23:29,350 --> 01:23:27,440
a naive empiricist it has to have access

2345
01:23:31,910 --> 01:23:29,360
to my consciousness and my reason or my

2346
01:23:34,149 --> 01:23:31,920
intelligence or again i can't actually

2347
01:23:39,189 --> 01:23:34,159
posit the very model that i'm using to

2348
01:23:44,870 --> 01:23:41,750
yeah so if we try to understand this

2349
01:23:47,990 --> 01:23:44,880
situation to me it's very uh

2350
01:23:51,270 --> 01:23:48,000
it's almost capable to be in a similar

2351
01:23:55,350 --> 01:23:51,280
situation as a robot living inside of

2352
01:23:58,070 --> 01:23:55,360
some kind of computer and this

2353
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:58,080
computer is set up in such a way that it

2354
01:24:02,870 --> 01:24:00,239
provides affordances to an external

2355
01:24:04,629 --> 01:24:02,880
environment and now uh the uh

2356
01:24:07,189 --> 01:24:04,639
computational system that lives inside

2357
01:24:09,830 --> 01:24:07,199
of that computer uh this set of

2358
01:24:11,669 --> 01:24:09,840
organized patterns that we call software

2359
01:24:13,750 --> 01:24:11,679
is set up in such a way that it can

2360
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:13,760
discover regularities and the patterns

2361
01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:16,159
and extend its affordances into this

2362
01:24:20,470 --> 01:24:18,320
environment and and thereby make sense

2363
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:20,480
of the environment and it seems to me

2364
01:24:24,229 --> 01:24:22,080
that i am uh

2365
01:24:25,990 --> 01:24:24,239
i find myself in arrangement that is

2366
01:24:28,470 --> 01:24:26,000
indistinguishable from this description

2367
01:24:31,030 --> 01:24:28,480
that is intimately familiar to me if i'm

2368
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:31,040
an ai researcher

2369
01:24:35,430 --> 01:24:33,040
right i guess the question i'm asking

2370
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:35,440
you in your example is it possible for

2371
01:24:42,550 --> 01:24:37,679
the robot to discover that it is inside

2372
01:24:47,669 --> 01:24:45,510
um yes i think it is but uh there are

2373
01:24:49,750 --> 01:24:47,679
certain limitations to this and i think

2374
01:24:51,350 --> 01:24:49,760
that you can discover this from in a

2375
01:24:53,910 --> 01:24:51,360
sense from first principles because

2376
01:24:55,510 --> 01:24:53,920
there are no alternatives there are many

2377
01:24:57,430 --> 01:24:55,520
uh ways in which you can map this

2378
01:24:59,510 --> 01:24:57,440
conceptually so the ways in which you

2379
01:25:01,590 --> 01:24:59,520
depict these entities because they are

2380
01:25:03,189 --> 01:25:01,600
not entities that are defined by

2381
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:03,199
physical appearances they are not

2382
01:25:08,310 --> 01:25:05,760
defined by res extensor they are defined

2383
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:08,320
by certain conceptual relationships

2384
01:25:12,470 --> 01:25:10,400
and it turns out that all the ways i

2385
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:12,480
think in which a mind can exist as an

2386
01:25:15,910 --> 01:25:15,120
apparent pattern and control structure

2387
01:25:17,669 --> 01:25:15,920
are

2388
01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:17,679
can be mapped

2389
01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:19,440
structurally

2390
01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:21,280
in first principles on conceptual

2391
01:25:27,030 --> 01:25:24,080
structures that are equivalent so we

2392
01:25:29,350 --> 01:25:27,040
this might disagree about

2393
01:25:30,950 --> 01:25:29,360
how this computer is set up this is the

2394
01:25:32,709 --> 01:25:30,960
von neumann architecture or anything

2395
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:32,719
else and there is no possible way to

2396
01:25:36,950 --> 01:25:34,480
distinguish them and there is no claim

2397
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:36,960
to this uh how this actually works we

2398
01:25:41,590 --> 01:25:39,199
know that the biological systems that

2399
01:25:42,310 --> 01:25:41,600
are able to process information work in

2400
01:25:43,750 --> 01:25:42,320
uh

2401
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:43,760
dramatically different ways from the

2402
01:25:47,590 --> 01:25:45,679
technological systems that we have built

2403
01:25:49,590 --> 01:25:47,600
to process information and so on and we

2404
01:25:52,229 --> 01:25:49,600
don't have disagreement about this but

2405
01:25:54,470 --> 01:25:52,239
we also know that uh there is a certain

2406
01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:54,480
deep conceptual level and equivalence of

2407
01:25:59,590 --> 01:25:56,880
what they can do

2408
01:26:02,070 --> 01:25:59,600
i agree with that and so now it's

2409
01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:02,080
what it sounds like you're saying is

2410
01:26:04,229 --> 01:26:03,360
um

2411
01:26:09,350 --> 01:26:04,239
the

2412
01:26:11,189 --> 01:26:09,360
that are sort of accessible to my priori

2413
01:26:12,629 --> 01:26:11,199
reason and that that's what i use in

2414
01:26:15,350 --> 01:26:12,639
order to determine

2415
01:26:18,310 --> 01:26:15,360
i'm within the welter of experience and

2416
01:26:20,629 --> 01:26:18,320
i use my priori ability to make sense of

2417
01:26:23,189 --> 01:26:20,639
things and that helps me sort through

2418
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:23,199
and sift through um those that are going

2419
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:24,080
to

2420
01:26:30,629 --> 01:26:27,440
let me know that i'm inside a simulation

2421
01:26:31,430 --> 01:26:30,639
um and then that that says to me

2422
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:31,440
that

2423
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:33,600
what's ultimately real for you and you

2424
01:26:36,629 --> 01:26:35,040
invoke the archetypes at one point when

2425
01:26:38,070 --> 01:26:36,639
you talk about the cop you said you're

2426
01:26:39,669 --> 01:26:38,080
you're you're sounding to me like a

2427
01:26:41,750 --> 01:26:39,679
platonus you're sounding me like you're

2428
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:41,760
saying what's ultimately real

2429
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:44,320
are sort of the mathematical objects

2430
01:26:49,270 --> 01:26:46,719
accessible throughout prior reality and

2431
01:26:51,270 --> 01:26:49,280
everything else is less real than them

2432
01:26:53,189 --> 01:26:51,280
and it's like i mean plato has the first

2433
01:26:54,629 --> 01:26:53,199
simulation theory around you're inside

2434
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:54,639
the cave and you're only looking at the

2435
01:26:58,310 --> 01:26:56,800
shadows and the echoes and you have to

2436
01:27:00,709 --> 01:26:58,320
make your way out

2437
01:27:02,790 --> 01:27:00,719
is that a fair reading

2438
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:02,800
almost i think that an archetype is an

2439
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:05,520
optimum and a description function

2440
01:27:09,030 --> 01:27:07,199
it's in some sense a mathematical

2441
01:27:11,030 --> 01:27:09,040
regularity in the same sense as the

2442
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:11,040
greek gods are archetypes personality

2443
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:13,840
archetypes that basically if you take a

2444
01:27:17,830 --> 01:27:15,840
space of personality properties and

2445
01:27:18,870 --> 01:27:17,840
their interaction

2446
01:27:20,310 --> 01:27:18,880
right they

2447
01:27:21,270 --> 01:27:20,320
interact with each other and you

2448
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:21,280
basically

2449
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:23,679
find uh settings of the dials that give

2450
01:27:28,870 --> 01:27:26,480
you one personality that is as clear as

2451
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:28,880
possible sure given these assumptions

2452
01:27:32,709 --> 01:27:30,480
you end up with one of these archetypes

2453
01:27:35,510 --> 01:27:32,719
and it's how the greek gods are stable

2454
01:27:37,590 --> 01:27:35,520
in in this way or the christian god is

2455
01:27:39,189 --> 01:27:37,600
the archetype of the total god

2456
01:27:40,709 --> 01:27:39,199
yeah and it's a particular one because

2457
01:27:43,110 --> 01:27:40,719
this thing needed to be loaded to be

2458
01:27:44,950 --> 01:27:43,120
also a civilizational spirit for an

2459
01:27:46,709 --> 01:27:44,960
agricultural society

2460
01:27:48,149 --> 01:27:46,719
so it's not actually the total god and

2461
01:27:50,790 --> 01:27:48,159
that's the slate of hand that is going

2462
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:50,800
on by identifying the creator god uh

2463
01:27:55,830 --> 01:27:52,800
with the god of meaning and with the god

2464
01:27:57,910 --> 01:27:55,840
of the uh late roman empire right so

2465
01:28:00,790 --> 01:27:57,920
these are different gods in a certain

2466
01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:00,800
way that have been put into one uh for

2467
01:28:06,149 --> 01:28:03,280
practical reasons and uh the reason why

2468
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:06,159
we have so many claims to total gods uh

2469
01:28:11,350 --> 01:28:08,880
is because of this payload that the myth

2470
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:11,360
of the total god has to carry but uh

2471
01:28:15,270 --> 01:28:13,199
this doesn't mean that the archetype

2472
01:28:17,430 --> 01:28:15,280
actually exists out in the physical

2473
01:28:19,350 --> 01:28:17,440
world there is no reason why when you

2474
01:28:21,910 --> 01:28:19,360
have a description function and you

2475
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:21,920
discover an optimum on it why this

2476
01:28:26,950 --> 01:28:24,320
thing needs to exist but it will exist

2477
01:28:28,709 --> 01:28:26,960
in any systems that build these types of

2478
01:28:30,629 --> 01:28:28,719
models which means they exist as a point

2479
01:28:32,390 --> 01:28:30,639
of reference there's certain optima in

2480
01:28:34,070 --> 01:28:32,400
which you describe things and it's also

2481
01:28:36,790 --> 01:28:34,080
true for our own perception when we

2482
01:28:38,629 --> 01:28:36,800
perceive things what we perceive is not

2483
01:28:41,830 --> 01:28:38,639
the features in which they are arranged

2484
01:28:44,470 --> 01:28:41,840
what we perceive as a certain ideal that

2485
01:28:46,470 --> 01:28:44,480
is being projected by the features

2486
01:28:49,030 --> 01:28:46,480
right yeah and this is uh this is what

2487
01:28:51,350 --> 01:28:49,040
platonism means it doesn't mean a claim

2488
01:28:53,110 --> 01:28:51,360
to the actual existence of physical

2489
01:28:55,430 --> 01:28:53,120
things of or

2490
01:28:57,669 --> 01:28:55,440
affairs in in the world with which we

2491
01:28:59,669 --> 01:28:57,679
causally interact uh it's uh the

2492
01:29:01,590 --> 01:28:59,679
observation that when we are building

2493
01:29:03,590 --> 01:29:01,600
models of the world there are certain

2494
01:29:06,149 --> 01:29:03,600
models that are more pure and more

2495
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:06,159
elegant than others right and this uh

2496
01:29:11,270 --> 01:29:08,639
this is in some sense the platonic idea

2497
01:29:15,270 --> 01:29:11,280
yeah and so that's where you and i have

2498
01:29:17,189 --> 01:29:15,280
a very deep kind of agreement um

2499
01:29:18,629 --> 01:29:17,199
because i i consider myself a

2500
01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:18,639
neoplatonist

2501
01:29:23,030 --> 01:29:20,800
in my sort of ultimate orientation

2502
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:23,040
i guess what i would say

2503
01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:24,719
and plato i think might agree with me is

2504
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:26,560
he would say well saying it doesn't

2505
01:29:30,629 --> 01:29:28,639
exist physically it doesn't say much

2506
01:29:31,510 --> 01:29:30,639
because the physics is ultimately less

2507
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:31,520
real

2508
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:35,040
than uh the platonic objects of which uh

2509
01:29:40,310 --> 01:29:37,440
right because the physical things the

2510
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:40,320
instantiated things are only as you said

2511
01:29:44,870 --> 01:29:42,639
only temporary instances right they're

2512
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:44,880
less stable they're less real and so the

2513
01:29:49,110 --> 01:29:47,199
fact that it doesn't exist physically

2514
01:29:51,270 --> 01:29:49,120
doesn't sound

2515
01:29:53,510 --> 01:29:51,280
like to plato's ears they would go yeah

2516
01:29:54,950 --> 01:29:53,520
and that's that's to say that they're

2517
01:29:57,110 --> 01:29:54,960
more real

2518
01:29:58,310 --> 01:29:57,120
than a physical reality in an important

2519
01:30:01,910 --> 01:29:58,320
way

2520
01:30:03,910 --> 01:30:01,920
and that seems to me

2521
01:30:05,110 --> 01:30:03,920
kind of what you need in order to do

2522
01:30:06,629 --> 01:30:05,120
science

2523
01:30:07,830 --> 01:30:06,639
you need to be able to posit these kinds

2524
01:30:09,350 --> 01:30:07,840
of entities in order to do

2525
01:30:10,149 --> 01:30:09,360
generalizations

2526
01:30:15,270 --> 01:30:10,159
in

2527
01:30:16,550 --> 01:30:15,280
empiricists wouldn't like the fact that

2528
01:30:19,350 --> 01:30:16,560
i could run some math and make

2529
01:30:20,550 --> 01:30:19,360
conclusions about reality i mean you you

2530
01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:20,560
have to believe

2531
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:22,800
uh uh uh like stronger you have to

2532
01:30:28,870 --> 01:30:27,120
assert this kind of thing um and now i

2533
01:30:30,790 --> 01:30:28,880
um you seem to be nodding so i don't

2534
01:30:32,709 --> 01:30:30,800
think i'm being too imposing on you and

2535
01:30:34,950 --> 01:30:32,719
i'm finding that we got to this place

2536
01:30:36,950 --> 01:30:34,960
very very interesting because and i want

2537
01:30:39,030 --> 01:30:36,960
and i don't mean this as any kind of

2538
01:30:40,629 --> 01:30:39,040
critique of your presentation

2539
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:40,639
i didn't get that when i was watching

2540
01:30:45,750 --> 01:30:43,199
your videos right it took it took it

2541
01:30:48,310 --> 01:30:45,760
took a lot of this no and again i'm not

2542
01:30:50,550 --> 01:30:48,320
critiquing you but i i found that i've

2543
01:30:54,390 --> 01:30:50,560
now gotten to a very very interesting

2544
01:30:55,510 --> 01:30:54,400
place with you um i i don't know what uh

2545
01:30:57,189 --> 01:30:55,520
we haven't said too much about

2546
01:31:00,229 --> 01:30:57,199
consciousness and meaning like we

2547
01:31:02,070 --> 01:31:00,239
promised we would but i found this uh

2548
01:31:04,070 --> 01:31:02,080
this progression really really powerful

2549
01:31:06,550 --> 01:31:04,080
and interesting um

2550
01:31:07,750 --> 01:31:06,560
because i'm also interested

2551
01:31:08,950 --> 01:31:07,760
um

2552
01:31:10,310 --> 01:31:08,960
you have a knack for saying very

2553
01:31:12,790 --> 01:31:10,320
intriguing things about religion and

2554
01:31:15,350 --> 01:31:12,800
history um i'm very interested

2555
01:31:18,070 --> 01:31:15,360
in the fact that platonism neoplatonism

2556
01:31:21,110 --> 01:31:18,080
because they were a continuity uh formed

2557
01:31:23,110 --> 01:31:21,120
an interesting kind of lingua

2558
01:31:25,430 --> 01:31:23,120
intellectual lingua franca along the

2559
01:31:28,229 --> 01:31:25,440
silk road uh you can even see this

2560
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:28,239
historically uh neoplatonism was able to

2561
01:31:31,030 --> 01:31:29,520
reciprocally reconstruct with

2562
01:31:32,629 --> 01:31:31,040
christianity

2563
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:32,639
with islam

2564
01:31:36,790 --> 01:31:34,880
with judaism and there's there's now

2565
01:31:38,950 --> 01:31:36,800
some evidence even with buddhism it

2566
01:31:40,390 --> 01:31:38,960
seems to have this interesting capacity

2567
01:31:43,030 --> 01:31:40,400
to be

2568
01:31:44,870 --> 01:31:43,040
more of a er or primordial

2569
01:31:47,510 --> 01:31:44,880
representation of our shared

2570
01:31:49,750 --> 01:31:47,520
intelligibility making processes i find

2571
01:31:51,189 --> 01:31:49,760
that a very interesting proposal

2572
01:31:52,470 --> 01:31:51,199
right now

2573
01:31:53,750 --> 01:31:52,480
because if we could get the

2574
01:31:55,270 --> 01:31:53,760
philosophical argument we've been

2575
01:31:56,310 --> 01:31:55,280
exploring and the historical argument

2576
01:31:57,510 --> 01:31:56,320
together

2577
01:32:00,470 --> 01:31:57,520
that means

2578
01:32:01,830 --> 01:32:00,480
we could make a plausible argument for a

2579
01:32:05,030 --> 01:32:01,840
shareable

2580
01:32:06,709 --> 01:32:05,040
framework for interpreting uh reality

2581
01:32:08,709 --> 01:32:06,719
and making and making claims about

2582
01:32:11,669 --> 01:32:08,719
reality and normative judgments and i

2583
01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:11,679
think this is very centrally needed

2584
01:32:16,310 --> 01:32:13,840
for a problem i talk about extensively

2585
01:32:19,750 --> 01:32:16,320
which is the meaning crisis uh that the

2586
01:32:21,669 --> 01:32:19,760
west is facing so i just wanted to say

2587
01:32:23,350 --> 01:32:21,679
i mean i've been sort of like

2588
01:32:26,149 --> 01:32:23,360
very critical but i want to now stand

2589
01:32:27,669 --> 01:32:26,159
back and express appreciation uh for

2590
01:32:29,830 --> 01:32:27,679
sort of where we got to and some of the

2591
01:32:32,149 --> 01:32:29,840
possibilities i see in it now i hope

2592
01:32:33,590 --> 01:32:32,159
that also wasn't uh imposing on you but

2593
01:32:35,910 --> 01:32:33,600
you were nodding as i was saying it so

2594
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:35,920
it seemed like it was uh but you don't

2595
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:37,840
need to apologize in this way in any way

2596
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:39,840
i don't identify with me having these

2597
01:32:44,790 --> 01:32:43,040
ideas i can observe myself having ideas

2598
01:32:47,189 --> 01:32:44,800
but the relationship that the ideas have

2599
01:32:49,030 --> 01:32:47,199
to me is not very interesting i just try

2600
01:32:51,990 --> 01:32:49,040
to play the glass punch wheel as well as

2601
01:32:54,149 --> 01:32:52,000
i can as you do as do you right so you

2602
01:32:56,470 --> 01:32:54,159
never need to apologize for criticizing

2603
01:32:58,709 --> 01:32:56,480
an idea or having a different one or uh

2604
01:33:01,270 --> 01:32:58,719
pointing out where my thinking falls

2605
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:01,280
short i'm i'm grateful if you point out

2606
01:33:06,070 --> 01:33:03,920
things that appear to be inconsistent so

2607
01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:06,080
don't worry about this at all

2608
01:33:09,030 --> 01:33:07,360
fair enough you're playing you're

2609
01:33:11,110 --> 01:33:09,040
playing you're playing the music with me

2610
01:33:12,709 --> 01:33:11,120
very well and i appreciate that my point

2611
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:12,719
for making the apology first of all i'm

2612
01:33:16,629 --> 01:33:14,560
a canadian we apologize for everything

2613
01:33:18,550 --> 01:33:16,639
secondly uh the point for me was to

2614
01:33:21,189 --> 01:33:18,560
trying to show you from where i was

2615
01:33:24,229 --> 01:33:21,199
coming that i wasn't that was the point

2616
01:33:26,950 --> 01:33:24,239
i was trying i was trying to make um

2617
01:33:28,550 --> 01:33:26,960
so i'm i'm interested

2618
01:33:31,510 --> 01:33:28,560
can i ask you a question

2619
01:33:33,510 --> 01:33:31,520
it's slightly more personal um

2620
01:33:35,430 --> 01:33:33,520
i think it's fair to say that the

2621
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:35,440
position you've taken

2622
01:33:39,510 --> 01:33:37,440
because i've i've interacted with a lot

2623
01:33:41,110 --> 01:33:39,520
of cognitive scientists who are computer

2624
01:33:42,070 --> 01:33:41,120
scientists the position you've taken

2625
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:42,080
isn't

2626
01:33:45,510 --> 01:33:43,760
like

2627
01:33:47,030 --> 01:33:45,520
isn't the consensus position or even the

2628
01:33:50,390 --> 01:33:47,040
majority position

2629
01:33:52,709 --> 01:33:50,400
is that fair to say uh

2630
01:33:54,629 --> 01:33:52,719
yes and no i find that

2631
01:33:57,990 --> 01:33:54,639
a lot of people who deeply think about

2632
01:34:00,229 --> 01:33:58,000
these topics seem to be converging so if

2633
01:34:01,669 --> 01:34:00,239
i would be discussing with say people

2634
01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:01,679
like uh

2635
01:34:08,470 --> 01:34:05,520
minsky dasher

2636
01:34:10,550 --> 01:34:08,480
many many other people next uh thursday

2637
01:34:13,750 --> 01:34:10,560
will have a discussion about attention

2638
01:34:16,229 --> 01:34:13,760
with michael graciano and

2639
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:16,239
vasudev and jonathan cohen who come from

2640
01:34:21,350 --> 01:34:18,960
ai and neuroscience and

2641
01:34:23,030 --> 01:34:21,360
cognitive science or philosophy uh and

2642
01:34:25,189 --> 01:34:23,040
we've been discussing attention and its

2643
01:34:27,030 --> 01:34:25,199
relationship to consciousness ultimately

2644
01:34:29,750 --> 01:34:27,040
yeah and i find that there is a large

2645
01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:29,760
convergence in these ideas i also don't

2646
01:34:35,030 --> 01:34:32,400
find that my ideas are in deep sense

2647
01:34:37,350 --> 01:34:35,040
original it's just that

2648
01:34:39,990 --> 01:34:37,360
the more ideas i discover the smaller

2649
01:34:43,350 --> 01:34:40,000
the parties become that i am late to

2650
01:34:47,270 --> 01:34:45,750
you know what i mean right so i i don't

2651
01:34:48,870 --> 01:34:47,280
think that's possible to have

2652
01:34:50,709 --> 01:34:48,880
philosophical ideas about the

2653
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:50,719
relationship between mind and physical

2654
01:34:54,550 --> 01:34:52,320
universe that have not been had by

2655
01:34:56,229 --> 01:34:54,560
somebody a few thousand years ago and if

2656
01:34:58,229 --> 01:34:56,239
somebody has a fundamentally new idea

2657
01:35:00,550 --> 01:34:58,239
that's probably bad news

2658
01:35:03,669 --> 01:35:00,560
unless it relates to some kind of super

2659
01:35:06,070 --> 01:35:03,679
modern physics in a highly original way

2660
01:35:08,070 --> 01:35:06,080
and uh it's possible that we find

2661
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:08,080
discover something on this level but by

2662
01:35:13,430 --> 01:35:11,280
and large um the big foundational

2663
01:35:15,669 --> 01:35:13,440
questions about epistemology and so on

2664
01:35:19,189 --> 01:35:15,679
our parent for so long that i don't have

2665
01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:19,199
any claims to originality in there and

2666
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:20,239
so

2667
01:35:23,430 --> 01:35:21,760
i would say that my ideas are not

2668
01:35:24,709 --> 01:35:23,440
original and they're also relatively

2669
01:35:26,950 --> 01:35:24,719
widespread

2670
01:35:30,629 --> 01:35:26,960
and the disagreements are largely uh

2671
01:35:33,590 --> 01:35:30,639
happening i think at the uh

2672
01:35:35,510 --> 01:35:33,600
when people have different epistemology

2673
01:35:37,510 --> 01:35:35,520
when they think that there are ways to

2674
01:35:38,870 --> 01:35:37,520
establishing truths that are different

2675
01:35:41,590 --> 01:35:38,880
from the ways in which i think that

2676
01:35:43,350 --> 01:35:41,600
truth can be established sure sure i i

2677
01:35:45,189 --> 01:35:43,360
think that's why i wanted to play at the

2678
01:35:47,590 --> 01:35:45,199
epistemological ontological level with

2679
01:35:49,270 --> 01:35:47,600
you i'm interested though that because i

2680
01:35:50,229 --> 01:35:49,280
also have a sense

2681
01:35:53,990 --> 01:35:50,239
of

2682
01:35:56,550 --> 01:35:54,000
and

2683
01:35:58,149 --> 01:35:56,560
that's why i liked the fact that you do

2684
01:35:59,590 --> 01:35:58,159
a big picture cog in science because i

2685
01:36:02,629 --> 01:35:59,600
think you have to do big picture

2686
01:36:05,350 --> 01:36:02,639
cognitive science to get that sense to

2687
01:36:08,709 --> 01:36:05,360
to really get it um

2688
01:36:14,070 --> 01:36:12,629
i i'm wondering um

2689
01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:14,080
in your practice of doing cognitive

2690
01:36:17,270 --> 01:36:15,280
science

2691
01:36:18,229 --> 01:36:17,280
how do you deal

2692
01:36:20,470 --> 01:36:18,239
because i agree with you about that

2693
01:36:22,470 --> 01:36:20,480
convergence and i agree with you

2694
01:36:25,830 --> 01:36:22,480
how do you deal with

2695
01:36:27,990 --> 01:36:25,840
the um the different ontologies right so

2696
01:36:29,910 --> 01:36:28,000
the neuroscientist talks about neurons

2697
01:36:30,629 --> 01:36:29,920
and does fmri

2698
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:30,639
and

2699
01:36:35,110 --> 01:36:32,400
the artificial intelligence person talks

2700
01:36:37,430 --> 01:36:35,120
about programs and runs simulations and

2701
01:36:39,590 --> 01:36:37,440
hoping that they become instantiations

2702
01:36:42,790 --> 01:36:39,600
the psychologist talks about working

2703
01:36:45,189 --> 01:36:42,800
memory and does you know experiments on

2704
01:36:46,470 --> 01:36:45,199
behavior the linguist talks about deep

2705
01:36:48,870 --> 01:36:46,480
structures

2706
01:36:50,950 --> 01:36:48,880
and right collects data about judgments

2707
01:36:55,830 --> 01:36:50,960
of grammaticality

2708
01:37:01,109 --> 01:36:57,350
this question really concerns me because

2709
01:37:02,149 --> 01:37:01,119
i think it it's part of

2710
01:37:05,270 --> 01:37:02,159
again

2711
01:37:07,750 --> 01:37:05,280
trying to turn cognitive science back

2712
01:37:09,510 --> 01:37:07,760
towards the existential issue that's

2713
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:09,520
facing us i don't mean existential a

2714
01:37:12,390 --> 01:37:11,360
sense of threat i mean like how

2715
01:37:14,709 --> 01:37:12,400
kirkegaard would use the word

2716
01:37:16,229 --> 01:37:14,719
existential the meaning making i go back

2717
01:37:17,669 --> 01:37:16,239
to the point i made

2718
01:37:18,709 --> 01:37:17,679
at the very beginning

2719
01:37:21,910 --> 01:37:18,719
right

2720
01:37:24,470 --> 01:37:21,920
that for a long time

2721
01:37:26,229 --> 01:37:24,480
the cognitive sciences and i'll use that

2722
01:37:28,629 --> 01:37:26,239
plural as opposed to cognitive science

2723
01:37:30,709 --> 01:37:28,639
that tries to do a synoptic integration

2724
01:37:33,510 --> 01:37:30,719
the cognitive scientists the cognitive

2725
01:37:36,950 --> 01:37:33,520
sciences have promoted a fragmentation

2726
01:37:39,109 --> 01:37:36,960
of what mind means in a profound way

2727
01:37:40,070 --> 01:37:39,119
and that fragmentation

2728
01:37:42,149 --> 01:37:40,080
has

2729
01:37:44,390 --> 01:37:42,159
right really when people start to

2730
01:37:46,950 --> 01:37:44,400
reflect and

2731
01:37:49,590 --> 01:37:46,960
they can offer i see this in my students

2732
01:37:51,109 --> 01:37:49,600
right they'll get caught up on i don't

2733
01:37:52,790 --> 01:37:51,119
know what this i don't know what a mind

2734
01:37:56,229 --> 01:37:52,800
is because there's this there's this

2735
01:37:57,669 --> 01:37:56,239
cacophony of all and and then of course

2736
01:37:59,109 --> 01:37:57,679
if i don't know what a mind is i don't

2737
01:38:00,470 --> 01:37:59,119
know what i am and i don't know how i

2738
01:38:02,709 --> 01:38:00,480
relate to the world you can see where

2739
01:38:05,990 --> 01:38:02,719
this goes the fragmentation of the

2740
01:38:09,350 --> 01:38:06,000
ontology by the cognitive scientists um

2741
01:38:12,629 --> 01:38:09,360
is not separate from a lot of

2742
01:38:16,709 --> 01:38:12,639
the the the the suffering that people

2743
01:38:18,950 --> 01:38:16,719
have because they don't find a stable

2744
01:38:21,669 --> 01:38:18,960
framework in which to locate the

2745
01:38:24,149 --> 01:38:21,679
phenomena of mind so

2746
01:38:26,070 --> 01:38:24,159
i'm asking this because as i said i

2747
01:38:29,109 --> 01:38:26,080
and you invoked wisdom a while back and

2748
01:38:31,030 --> 01:38:29,119
so i wanted to circle back to that

2749
01:38:33,270 --> 01:38:31,040
what wisdom have you

2750
01:38:35,990 --> 01:38:33,280
acquired cultivated realized i don't

2751
01:38:37,830 --> 01:38:36,000
want to know what verb you want um

2752
01:38:39,430 --> 01:38:37,840
for helping

2753
01:38:40,550 --> 01:38:39,440
do this

2754
01:38:44,709 --> 01:38:40,560
get

2755
01:38:45,990 --> 01:38:44,719
disciplines to start to pursue

2756
01:38:47,910 --> 01:38:46,000
integration

2757
01:38:51,189 --> 01:38:47,920
rather than fragmentation

2758
01:38:53,669 --> 01:38:51,199
and connecting that to

2759
01:38:57,590 --> 01:38:53,679
sort of the general issue of

2760
01:38:59,590 --> 01:38:57,600
how we as embodied minded beings fit

2761
01:39:01,430 --> 01:38:59,600
into a scientific worldview i know

2762
01:39:04,310 --> 01:39:01,440
that's a big question but i i'm really

2763
01:39:07,990 --> 01:39:05,830
i think that the disciplines by and

2764
01:39:11,830 --> 01:39:08,000
large are not very well incentivized to

2765
01:39:12,950 --> 01:39:11,840
do uh science and philosophy yeah so uh

2766
01:39:14,709 --> 01:39:12,960
that's something that we need to

2767
01:39:16,790 --> 01:39:14,719
understand that there are institutions

2768
01:39:17,830 --> 01:39:16,800
in which people go to work to feed their

2769
01:39:19,030 --> 01:39:17,840
children

2770
01:39:21,189 --> 01:39:19,040
and

2771
01:39:22,550 --> 01:39:21,199
a scientist is in some sense to me

2772
01:39:24,629 --> 01:39:22,560
someone who

2773
01:39:27,669 --> 01:39:24,639
has a particular kind of personality

2774
01:39:29,910 --> 01:39:27,679
it's someone who very early on in their

2775
01:39:33,030 --> 01:39:29,920
psychological development has decided to

2776
01:39:35,669 --> 01:39:33,040
trust their analytical thinking more

2777
01:39:38,149 --> 01:39:35,679
than their intuitions than their

2778
01:39:40,310 --> 01:39:38,159
feelings and their emotions and so on

2779
01:39:42,550 --> 01:39:40,320
and typically this happens because they

2780
01:39:44,950 --> 01:39:42,560
had asperger's and uh the prayers that

2781
01:39:47,430 --> 01:39:44,960
they had when they interacted uh with

2782
01:39:48,870 --> 01:39:47,440
other people socially failed in school

2783
01:39:51,030 --> 01:39:48,880
and so at some point they realized i

2784
01:39:52,790 --> 01:39:51,040
cannot trust my feelings because if i go

2785
01:39:54,470 --> 01:39:52,800
by my intuitions my interactions with

2786
01:39:56,310 --> 01:39:54,480
the world are going to fail and i have

2787
01:39:58,229 --> 01:39:56,320
to move to the analytical mode to make

2788
01:39:59,830 --> 01:39:58,239
sense of the world and if you are

2789
01:40:02,149 --> 01:39:59,840
permanently in the analytical mode

2790
01:40:03,750 --> 01:40:02,159
that's a trauma mode right

2791
01:40:05,350 --> 01:40:03,760
and healthy human being should

2792
01:40:06,870 --> 01:40:05,360
understand that the purpose of

2793
01:40:09,750 --> 01:40:06,880
analytical reasoning which by itself is

2794
01:40:11,830 --> 01:40:09,760
very brittle is to go to deal with your

2795
01:40:14,310 --> 01:40:11,840
darkest emotions those where you don't

2796
01:40:16,629 --> 01:40:14,320
see clearly what's what and in which way

2797
01:40:20,070 --> 01:40:16,639
to go so analytical reasoning is a very

2798
01:40:21,510 --> 01:40:20,080
powerful tool for very narrow areas of

2799
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:21,520
understanding the world and wealth

2800
01:40:25,189 --> 01:40:22,960
happen to be the ones that should be

2801
01:40:27,270 --> 01:40:25,199
studied in the sciences but it's wrong

2802
01:40:30,149 --> 01:40:27,280
to present scientists as a lifestyle

2803
01:40:31,669 --> 01:40:30,159
archetype and as the goal of education

2804
01:40:33,109 --> 01:40:31,679
only a very small subset of people

2805
01:40:34,790 --> 01:40:33,119
should be scientists and the existence

2806
01:40:36,390 --> 01:40:34,800
of scientists is very useful to the

2807
01:40:37,990 --> 01:40:36,400
world but being a scientist is largely

2808
01:40:39,750 --> 01:40:38,000
not fun

2809
01:40:41,990 --> 01:40:39,760
and so we

2810
01:40:43,669 --> 01:40:42,000
have see science currently as more like

2811
01:40:45,510 --> 01:40:43,679
an employment program where we put

2812
01:40:46,870 --> 01:40:45,520
people that are difficult to employ in

2813
01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:46,880
the industry because we don't need that

2814
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:48,560
many people in the industry and teach

2815
01:40:51,830 --> 01:40:50,400
them methods and then they apply these

2816
01:40:54,070 --> 01:40:51,840
methods and we hope that the results

2817
01:40:55,750 --> 01:40:54,080
accumulate and the outcome is largely

2818
01:40:57,910 --> 01:40:55,760
not that interesting because you're not

2819
01:40:59,830 --> 01:40:57,920
being hired into a science to answer

2820
01:41:01,189 --> 01:40:59,840
foundational questions there are very

2821
01:41:02,790 --> 01:41:01,199
few

2822
01:41:04,550 --> 01:41:02,800
ways to answer foundation questions

2823
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:04,560
because the low hanging fruits fruits

2824
01:41:07,350 --> 01:41:05,920
have been

2825
01:41:08,310 --> 01:41:07,360
wrapped long ago

2826
01:41:09,750 --> 01:41:08,320
and

2827
01:41:11,030 --> 01:41:09,760
so you don't actually need that many

2828
01:41:12,550 --> 01:41:11,040
people working in the foundational

2829
01:41:15,109 --> 01:41:12,560
disciplines and making foundational

2830
01:41:17,430 --> 01:41:15,119
progress and you're not incentivized to

2831
01:41:19,350 --> 01:41:17,440
have ideas about foundational things so

2832
01:41:21,189 --> 01:41:19,360
among the very few people that are

2833
01:41:22,950 --> 01:41:21,199
willing to offer answer to foundational

2834
01:41:25,109 --> 01:41:22,960
questions and are so

2835
01:41:27,109 --> 01:41:25,119
bold and crazy to do this

2836
01:41:28,550 --> 01:41:27,119
there seem to be in some sense three

2837
01:41:32,070 --> 01:41:28,560
groups

2838
01:41:33,510 --> 01:41:32,080
fully understand the depths of these

2839
01:41:35,510 --> 01:41:33,520
questions and think that they found a

2840
01:41:37,669 --> 01:41:35,520
very simple answer that solves the

2841
01:41:39,270 --> 01:41:37,679
problem without actually doing so

2842
01:41:41,430 --> 01:41:39,280
these people tend not to be very

2843
01:41:43,109 --> 01:41:41,440
interesting and so there are simplified

2844
01:41:45,030 --> 01:41:43,119
notions of consciousness that do not

2845
01:41:47,030 --> 01:41:45,040
explain the necessary insufficient

2846
01:41:48,550 --> 01:41:47,040
conditions for a system being conscious

2847
01:41:51,030 --> 01:41:48,560
and they might lead to models in

2848
01:41:52,709 --> 01:41:51,040
neuroscience or in ai or in robotics

2849
01:41:54,229 --> 01:41:52,719
that claim to do a certain thing but

2850
01:41:55,910 --> 01:41:54,239
they don't

2851
01:41:58,470 --> 01:41:55,920
and it's not that interesting that these

2852
01:42:02,070 --> 01:41:58,480
exist then there is another type of mind

2853
01:42:04,229 --> 01:42:02,080
that is very humble and these people say

2854
01:42:06,310 --> 01:42:04,239
i don't actually know what the answer is

2855
01:42:08,790 --> 01:42:06,320
and i have the following questions and

2856
01:42:10,790 --> 01:42:08,800
i'm aware of the following space of

2857
01:42:12,709 --> 01:42:10,800
attempts to answer this and i am

2858
01:42:14,870 --> 01:42:12,719
currently moving in this area of the

2859
01:42:16,629 --> 01:42:14,880
space and this is what i'm seeing from

2860
01:42:18,229 --> 01:42:16,639
where i'm currently standing and this is

2861
01:42:20,390 --> 01:42:18,239
how i'm able to interact with others

2862
01:42:22,950 --> 01:42:20,400
from this vantage point and

2863
01:42:24,149 --> 01:42:22,960
i'm still in this exploration

2864
01:42:29,910 --> 01:42:24,159
and

2865
01:42:32,629 --> 01:42:29,920
openly discussed very much because a

2866
01:42:34,390 --> 01:42:32,639
scientist has to publish the things that

2867
01:42:35,830 --> 01:42:34,400
they can hope to prove and not the

2868
01:42:37,109 --> 01:42:35,840
things that they are seeing and most of

2869
01:42:39,109 --> 01:42:37,119
the things that we are seeing as a

2870
01:42:41,030 --> 01:42:39,119
possibility and most of the interesting

2871
01:42:42,870 --> 01:42:41,040
answers on the realm of the possible

2872
01:42:45,109 --> 01:42:42,880
cannot be established by an experiment

2873
01:42:46,470 --> 01:42:45,119
because it's a possibility right so the

2874
01:42:48,070 --> 01:42:46,480
possibility is often the most

2875
01:42:50,149 --> 01:42:48,080
interesting things and possibilities are

2876
01:42:51,910 --> 01:42:50,159
difficult to publish and discuss about

2877
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:51,920
exactly well said

2878
01:42:56,709 --> 01:42:54,880
and the third group are the crazies

2879
01:42:58,709 --> 01:42:56,719
these are people that think that they

2880
01:43:00,390 --> 01:42:58,719
have certainty and they're super smart

2881
01:43:02,550 --> 01:43:00,400
and they go very deep

2882
01:43:04,149 --> 01:43:02,560
and uh often the crazies are also among

2883
01:43:05,510 --> 01:43:04,159
the most interesting ones but it also

2884
01:43:07,910 --> 01:43:05,520
means that you have to parse them in the

2885
01:43:10,149 --> 01:43:07,920
right way yeah so the crazies are in for

2886
01:43:11,830 --> 01:43:10,159
instance jurgen schmidt hoover or

2887
01:43:14,709 --> 01:43:11,840
stephen wolfram and so on these are

2888
01:43:16,870 --> 01:43:14,719
people that uh for some reason aspire to

2889
01:43:19,510 --> 01:43:16,880
greatness and force themselves to be

2890
01:43:21,350 --> 01:43:19,520
great no matter the personal cause to

2891
01:43:23,189 --> 01:43:21,360
them so they're not humble

2892
01:43:25,990 --> 01:43:23,199
and they do have theories of everything

2893
01:43:28,550 --> 01:43:26,000
that they are not shy to denote as such

2894
01:43:31,189 --> 01:43:28,560
and put out there and these ideas are

2895
01:43:33,189 --> 01:43:31,199
often extremely interesting to bounce up

2896
01:43:34,629 --> 01:43:33,199
against and try to understand them

2897
01:43:36,709 --> 01:43:34,639
deeply

2898
01:43:39,030 --> 01:43:36,719
that's very interesting

2899
01:43:41,270 --> 01:43:39,040
much in that was well said

2900
01:43:43,669 --> 01:43:41,280
um i've been trying to talk about and

2901
01:43:45,990 --> 01:43:43,679
model a form of interaction um called

2902
01:43:48,470 --> 01:43:46,000
dialogos in which people are in the

2903
01:43:50,229 --> 01:43:48,480
second group but are willing to talk

2904
01:43:52,629 --> 01:43:50,239
about sort of ideas and proposals that

2905
01:43:56,070 --> 01:43:52,639
come from the third group that where

2906
01:43:58,870 --> 01:43:56,080
people are very open uh to

2907
01:44:02,390 --> 01:43:58,880
as you said a kind of humble exploration

2908
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:02,400
uh uh a an idea that you can help me

2909
01:44:07,270 --> 01:44:03,440
correct

2910
01:44:10,310 --> 01:44:07,280
can work together and we can get we can

2911
01:44:11,910 --> 01:44:10,320
get to ideas that uh emerge between us

2912
01:44:15,430 --> 01:44:11,920
that i can't get to on my own you can't

2913
01:44:18,310 --> 01:44:15,440
get to on your own um and and that

2914
01:44:19,510 --> 01:44:18,320
openness to the possibility of genuine

2915
01:44:21,109 --> 01:44:19,520
emergence

2916
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:21,119
bumps us up against

2917
01:44:24,310 --> 01:44:22,800
you called them the crazies

2918
01:44:27,350 --> 01:44:24,320
because you one of the things you want

2919
01:44:30,390 --> 01:44:27,360
to do is let some of those uh crazier

2920
01:44:32,149 --> 01:44:30,400
ideas in because

2921
01:44:35,109 --> 01:44:32,159
they help

2922
01:44:37,750 --> 01:44:35,119
give you it's like uh letting in a

2923
01:44:40,470 --> 01:44:37,760
different sensei into the dojo uh for a

2924
01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:40,480
bit not for not for very long because uh

2925
01:44:44,310 --> 01:44:42,239
the dojo will fall apart but letting

2926
01:44:46,390 --> 01:44:44,320
them in for a bit because you get a new

2927
01:44:48,709 --> 01:44:46,400
you get a new conceptual vocabulary a

2928
01:44:51,430 --> 01:44:48,719
new theoretical grammar and so i've been

2929
01:44:55,830 --> 01:44:51,440
i i've been trying to model

2930
01:44:57,510 --> 01:44:55,840
that uh process even

2931
01:44:58,550 --> 01:44:57,520
in an academic setting i've been trying

2932
01:45:00,870 --> 01:44:58,560
to

2933
01:45:03,910 --> 01:45:00,880
pursue the presentation of ideas about

2934
01:45:06,709 --> 01:45:03,920
consciousness the self etc in a

2935
01:45:09,270 --> 01:45:06,719
dialogical manner rather than in a

2936
01:45:12,790 --> 01:45:09,280
monologue in which there's all kinds of

2937
01:45:13,750 --> 01:45:12,800
uh claims about closure and certainty um

2938
01:45:14,830 --> 01:45:13,760
so

2939
01:45:39,669 --> 01:45:14,840
i

2940
01:45:41,669 --> 01:45:39,679
address a lot of the concerns usage

2941
01:45:45,669 --> 01:45:41,679
brought up so

2942
01:45:49,990 --> 01:45:48,229
spending time

2943
01:45:52,950 --> 01:45:50,000
doing more of this

2944
01:45:54,870 --> 01:45:52,960
is actually not it's not an ornament

2945
01:45:57,350 --> 01:45:54,880
it's not just a ceremony it's not just a

2946
01:45:59,270 --> 01:45:57,360
social gathering for cognitive science

2947
01:46:01,109 --> 01:45:59,280
it's actually essential for cognitive

2948
01:46:02,870 --> 01:46:01,119
science if it's going to progress i

2949
01:46:04,950 --> 01:46:02,880
guess this is me also saying uh thank

2950
01:46:06,950 --> 01:46:04,960
you to kurt for doing this and thank you

2951
01:46:09,189 --> 01:46:06,960
also for you you know you came here in

2952
01:46:10,550 --> 01:46:09,199
good faith and you've been uh that way

2953
01:46:14,470 --> 01:46:10,560
throughout but i'm trying to make an

2954
01:46:15,910 --> 01:46:14,480
argument for this being more central and

2955
01:46:18,870 --> 01:46:15,920
the problem

2956
01:46:21,189 --> 01:46:18,880
is that the institution that is

2957
01:46:23,350 --> 01:46:21,199
where we house the science the

2958
01:46:25,430 --> 01:46:23,360
university doesn't know how to deal with

2959
01:46:27,510 --> 01:46:25,440
this emerging phenomena it doesn't know

2960
01:46:29,430 --> 01:46:27,520
how to deal with because of social media

2961
01:46:30,870 --> 01:46:29,440
because of this technology because a lot

2962
01:46:33,270 --> 01:46:30,880
of this understanding this is all

2963
01:46:35,189 --> 01:46:33,280
happening more and more and more

2964
01:46:37,270 --> 01:46:35,199
but when i for example when i try to

2965
01:46:39,590 --> 01:46:37,280
bring this into the institution the

2966
01:46:41,590 --> 01:46:39,600
institution seems to still be bound in

2967
01:46:43,910 --> 01:46:41,600
sort of a victorian paper and pencil

2968
01:46:45,430 --> 01:46:43,920
mentality about how we evaluate things

2969
01:46:47,669 --> 01:46:45,440
how we evaluate the work people are

2970
01:46:49,910 --> 01:46:47,679
doing like for example none of this even

2971
01:46:52,550 --> 01:46:49,920
though i think it's really important

2972
01:46:55,270 --> 01:46:52,560
to the to the life of cognitive science

2973
01:46:57,109 --> 01:46:55,280
none of this would even show up on my cv

2974
01:47:00,229 --> 01:46:57,119
uh because if i put it on my cv it would

2975
01:47:02,390 --> 01:47:00,239
just be ignored um and it seems to me

2976
01:47:05,350 --> 01:47:02,400
that's a very problematic place that we

2977
01:47:06,870 --> 01:47:05,360
have gotten and we've gotten to

2978
01:47:08,709 --> 01:47:06,880
john what would be an example of you

2979
01:47:10,229 --> 01:47:08,719
bringing this idea of dialogue to the

2980
01:47:12,550 --> 01:47:10,239
university and the university saying no

2981
01:47:14,870 --> 01:47:12,560
like what specifically did you propose

2982
01:47:16,229 --> 01:47:14,880
so for example i i you know

2983
01:47:18,390 --> 01:47:16,239
i i put out

2984
01:47:19,990 --> 01:47:18,400
i put out a series the elusive eye with

2985
01:47:22,149 --> 01:47:20,000
greg enriquez and christopher master

2986
01:47:24,390 --> 01:47:22,159
pietro on the nature and function of the

2987
01:47:27,189 --> 01:47:24,400
self it did untangling the world not

2988
01:47:29,590 --> 01:47:27,199
with greg enriquez a psychologist about

2989
01:47:32,390 --> 01:47:29,600
consciousness and it was done like uh

2990
01:47:34,629 --> 01:47:32,400
did one with uh zach stein and greg

2991
01:47:36,390 --> 01:47:34,639
enriquez on towards a metapsychology

2992
01:47:39,189 --> 01:47:36,400
that is true to transformation

2993
01:47:41,990 --> 01:47:39,199
and to my mind the kind of exploration

2994
01:47:44,790 --> 01:47:42,000
of ideas and advancement of insightful

2995
01:47:46,470 --> 01:47:44,800
arguments was better there and i'm not

2996
01:47:48,070 --> 01:47:46,480
trying to be self-congratulatory because

2997
01:47:51,350 --> 01:47:48,080
other people are doing this but it was

2998
01:47:52,550 --> 01:47:51,360
better than a lot of the stuff that is

2999
01:47:56,629 --> 01:47:52,560
typically

3000
01:47:58,149 --> 01:47:56,639
to count as

3001
01:48:00,229 --> 01:47:58,159
right that you're doing work in the

3002
01:48:01,430 --> 01:48:00,239
discipline uh you know

3003
01:48:04,709 --> 01:48:01,440
you know

3004
01:48:07,350 --> 01:48:04,719
that's that's what i'm trying to say

3005
01:48:10,390 --> 01:48:07,360
the discipline is no longer the place

3006
01:48:11,750 --> 01:48:10,400
where the science is getting mo sorry

3007
01:48:13,669 --> 01:48:11,760
that was exactly the wrong word the

3008
01:48:15,189 --> 01:48:13,679
institution the university is no longer

3009
01:48:16,390 --> 01:48:15,199
the and i like working for the

3010
01:48:18,390 --> 01:48:16,400
university of toronto by the way i'm not

3011
01:48:22,310 --> 01:48:18,400
trying to get myself out of a job but

3012
01:48:23,990 --> 01:48:22,320
right the the like the institution is

3013
01:48:25,030 --> 01:48:24,000
not the place

3014
01:48:27,109 --> 01:48:25,040
really

3015
01:48:29,189 --> 01:48:27,119
where the kind of science we need now

3016
01:48:31,030 --> 01:48:29,199
both for itself and

3017
01:48:33,270 --> 01:48:31,040
before the culture is happening that's

3018
01:48:35,750 --> 01:48:33,280
the argument i'm making

3019
01:48:38,070 --> 01:48:35,760
yoshi there is no other place right it's

3020
01:48:40,709 --> 01:48:38,080
not like that there is a new heaven that

3021
01:48:43,830 --> 01:48:40,719
has opened itself up for experiments and

3022
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:43,840
thoughts like this there is a network of

3023
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:46,000
basically small events of workshops

3024
01:48:50,149 --> 01:48:47,760
conferences and so on that happens

3025
01:48:52,790 --> 01:48:50,159
between the disciplines but it's mostly

3026
01:48:54,950 --> 01:48:52,800
that we do this on the side yes exactly

3027
01:48:57,350 --> 01:48:54,960
in addition to uh what we do in the

3028
01:49:00,790 --> 01:48:57,360
sciences in the same way as michael uh

3029
01:49:02,470 --> 01:49:00,800
graciano uh or tononi and many others

3030
01:49:03,510 --> 01:49:02,480
basically have a daytime job in the

3031
01:49:05,510 --> 01:49:03,520
sciences

3032
01:49:07,590 --> 01:49:05,520
and the philosophical contributions that

3033
01:49:09,270 --> 01:49:07,600
they do they do on the site it's also in

3034
01:49:12,470 --> 01:49:09,280
many ways too fast

3035
01:49:14,229 --> 01:49:12,480
and it's not uh that we feel that or i

3036
01:49:15,590 --> 01:49:14,239
feel that i mistreated in this way i

3037
01:49:17,350 --> 01:49:15,600
understand why the institutional

3038
01:49:21,430 --> 01:49:17,360
incentives are in the way they are and

3039
01:49:23,750 --> 01:49:21,440
the reasonable and uh good-natured uh

3040
01:49:25,990 --> 01:49:23,760
reasons for this for the most part for

3041
01:49:27,830 --> 01:49:26,000
why this is the way in which it is it

3042
01:49:30,629 --> 01:49:27,840
just means that we need alternate ways

3043
01:49:33,109 --> 01:49:30,639
of funding uh to make this happen and we

3044
01:49:35,030 --> 01:49:33,119
need an alternate ways of organizing it

3045
01:49:36,310 --> 01:49:35,040
to uh keep on

3046
01:49:39,030 --> 01:49:36,320
with going it

3047
01:49:41,990 --> 01:49:39,040
uh going on with it i also want to uh

3048
01:49:43,510 --> 01:49:42,000
just briefly make a case for the crazies

3049
01:49:45,189 --> 01:49:43,520
the reason why i'm not a crazy is

3050
01:49:47,270 --> 01:49:45,199
because i'm not smart enough i'm not

3051
01:49:49,750 --> 01:49:47,280
smart enough to maintain the illusion

3052
01:49:51,990 --> 01:49:49,760
that i see things that others are not

3053
01:49:54,870 --> 01:49:52,000
seeing and often more clearly and better

3054
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:54,880
and with more focus than i can see them

3055
01:50:00,870 --> 01:49:58,000
so uh i basically i get humbled by my

3056
01:50:03,189 --> 01:50:00,880
own inadequacy and there are some people

3057
01:50:05,590 --> 01:50:03,199
which are basically not that inadequate

3058
01:50:07,510 --> 01:50:05,600
so for them it takes many decades longer

3059
01:50:09,910 --> 01:50:07,520
before they would get to the point where

3060
01:50:10,870 --> 01:50:09,920
they are forced to humble themselves so

3061
01:50:12,629 --> 01:50:10,880
they can

3062
01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:12,639
maintain an illusion of greatness that

3063
01:50:16,629 --> 01:50:14,400
they might have developed in their

3064
01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:16,639
dollar sense as a protective measure for

3065
01:50:22,470 --> 01:50:19,040
their own psychology and keep up with

3066
01:50:24,310 --> 01:50:22,480
being great and if somebody who's really

3067
01:50:26,950 --> 01:50:24,320
really smart is able to keep up the

3068
01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:26,960
crazy greatness this notion of everybody

3069
01:50:31,430 --> 01:50:28,800
else is confused and basically the only

3070
01:50:33,990 --> 01:50:31,440
one who sees the solution and here it is

3071
01:50:35,830 --> 01:50:34,000
basically uh this is an extremely

3072
01:50:36,950 --> 01:50:35,840
valuable person to have around and they

3073
01:50:39,669 --> 01:50:36,960
should be

3074
01:50:40,950 --> 01:50:39,679
cherished and protected and uh doesn't

3075
01:50:43,030 --> 01:50:40,960
mean that you have to believe everything

3076
01:50:44,950 --> 01:50:43,040
that they say but they're very few

3077
01:50:46,870 --> 01:50:44,960
people which are so bold and so daring

3078
01:50:49,669 --> 01:50:46,880
that they sacrifice themselves in such a

3079
01:50:51,189 --> 01:50:49,679
way yoshi do you see that as a negative

3080
01:50:52,310 --> 01:50:51,199
because the way that i hear it it sounds

3081
01:50:53,750 --> 01:50:52,320
like you know when you're at a job

3082
01:50:55,350 --> 01:50:53,760
interview and they say so what are your

3083
01:50:56,470 --> 01:50:55,360
weaknesses you say i work too hard so

3084
01:51:02,310 --> 01:50:56,480
what are your weaknesses well i'm not

3085
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:04,950
uh i wouldn't it says present this as a

3086
01:51:08,950 --> 01:51:07,280
weakness the typical

3087
01:51:10,709 --> 01:51:08,960
answer in this job interview would be

3088
01:51:14,790 --> 01:51:10,719
i'm too honest

3089
01:51:16,870 --> 01:51:14,800
right and then the other one says

3090
01:51:19,669 --> 01:51:16,880
why is that a problem don't give a

3091
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:22,070
now the problem is when you are in a job

3092
01:51:25,350 --> 01:51:23,920
interview and you don't fit in the issue

3093
01:51:26,709 --> 01:51:25,360
is um

3094
01:51:28,310 --> 01:51:26,719
what is the thing that you actually want

3095
01:51:29,990 --> 01:51:28,320
to do do you want to be part of that

3096
01:51:32,229 --> 01:51:30,000
particular hierarchy of this particular

3097
01:51:35,189 --> 01:51:32,239
kind of organization of this particular

3098
01:51:36,790 --> 01:51:35,199
kind of normativity and do you think

3099
01:51:38,629 --> 01:51:36,800
that you can actually help it along do

3100
01:51:39,750 --> 01:51:38,639
you share the aesthetics of that place

3101
01:51:41,910 --> 01:51:39,760
of work

3102
01:51:43,990 --> 01:51:41,920
that you will be part of and i found

3103
01:51:45,750 --> 01:51:44,000
when i was in academia i really enjoyed

3104
01:51:48,229 --> 01:51:45,760
it i really enjoyed working with

3105
01:51:50,790 --> 01:51:48,239
students i found that i needed to defend

3106
01:51:52,629 --> 01:51:50,800
a space of inquiry and the space of

3107
01:51:55,430 --> 01:51:52,639
inquiry ex coexisted with the

3108
01:51:57,910 --> 01:51:55,440
application of methods it was this thing

3109
01:51:59,510 --> 01:51:57,920
that enabled me to say to a student that

3110
01:52:01,270 --> 01:51:59,520
was not inspired you shouldn't be here

3111
01:52:02,790 --> 01:52:01,280
in my class if you don't like this if

3112
01:52:04,229 --> 01:52:02,800
you don't intrinsically want to do this

3113
01:52:06,310 --> 01:52:04,239
you're wasting your own time and

3114
01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:06,320
attention and my time and attention and

3115
01:52:09,910 --> 01:52:07,760
the time and attention of everybody

3116
01:52:11,990 --> 01:52:09,920
who's there go have a relationship go

3117
01:52:14,550 --> 01:52:12,000
read a good book go sit down in a cafe

3118
01:52:16,550 --> 01:52:14,560
or watch a movie or go to another class

3119
01:52:18,629 --> 01:52:16,560
don't be here because what we try to do

3120
01:52:20,229 --> 01:52:18,639
is we try to abuse the machine of

3121
01:52:21,750 --> 01:52:20,239
academia to do the things that we

3122
01:52:23,830 --> 01:52:21,760
actually want to do which is try to

3123
01:52:25,830 --> 01:52:23,840
figure out our relationship to the world

3124
01:52:28,550 --> 01:52:25,840
and make actual intellectual

3125
01:52:30,149 --> 01:52:28,560
uh and philosophical and personal

3126
01:52:32,629 --> 01:52:30,159
progress on certain questions that

3127
01:52:35,350 --> 01:52:32,639
actually move us that motivate us to be

3128
01:52:37,350 --> 01:52:35,360
here and spend a portion of our precious

3129
01:52:38,629 --> 01:52:37,360
irretrievable lifetime

3130
01:52:40,390 --> 01:52:38,639
with each other

3131
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:40,400
on these problems

3132
01:52:44,229 --> 01:52:41,360
and

3133
01:52:46,070 --> 01:52:44,239
so i don't found it difficult to defend

3134
01:52:48,550 --> 01:52:46,080
but i also understand that the machines

3135
01:52:51,910 --> 01:52:48,560
that we are part of that we are serving

3136
01:52:53,990 --> 01:52:51,920
are largely serving other goals

3137
01:52:56,470 --> 01:52:54,000
that was very well said

3138
01:52:59,750 --> 01:52:56,480
i guess for me i want to

3139
01:53:01,669 --> 01:52:59,760
i guess i i see more urgency now than

3140
01:53:03,830 --> 01:53:01,679
there has been in the past i agree with

3141
01:53:06,950 --> 01:53:03,840
you about these institutions are set up

3142
01:53:07,990 --> 01:53:06,960
the way they are for good reasons etc uh

3143
01:53:12,149 --> 01:53:08,000
but

3144
01:53:14,950 --> 01:53:12,159
i i do think we are we're entering into

3145
01:53:16,709 --> 01:53:14,960
very very significant changes um

3146
01:53:18,070 --> 01:53:16,719
you and i both think that

3147
01:53:20,149 --> 01:53:18,080
you know

3148
01:53:22,070 --> 01:53:20,159
strong ai is something that's very

3149
01:53:23,990 --> 01:53:22,080
possible i know you said because you've

3150
01:53:25,189 --> 01:53:24,000
said this and you and i both think this

3151
01:53:27,030 --> 01:53:25,199
has you know just important

3152
01:53:28,629 --> 01:53:27,040
ramifications beyond what a lot of

3153
01:53:30,149 --> 01:53:28,639
people are thinking about

3154
01:53:32,390 --> 01:53:30,159
uh and

3155
01:53:33,270 --> 01:53:32,400
um that's just one example of the way in

3156
01:53:34,709 --> 01:53:33,280
which

3157
01:53:36,629 --> 01:53:34,719
this is

3158
01:53:39,510 --> 01:53:36,639
accelerating and

3159
01:53:44,229 --> 01:53:41,510
and is corrosive to

3160
01:53:46,149 --> 01:53:44,239
people's attempt to sift through

3161
01:53:49,350 --> 01:53:46,159
and make sense sift through the

3162
01:53:51,589 --> 01:53:49,360
and make sense of their world um

3163
01:53:54,790 --> 01:53:51,599
the work i did on the meeting crisis

3164
01:53:56,550 --> 01:53:54,800
the the sense of uh

3165
01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:56,560
it's accelerating it's accelerating

3166
01:53:59,910 --> 01:53:58,560
exponentially people are increasingly

3167
01:54:02,470 --> 01:53:59,920
thinking there's more and more more and

3168
01:54:04,070 --> 01:54:02,480
more and more around

3169
01:54:06,629 --> 01:54:04,080
um and

3170
01:54:10,070 --> 01:54:06,639
i think the kind of stuff we're doing

3171
01:54:13,030 --> 01:54:10,080
here together is the place the arena the

3172
01:54:15,109 --> 01:54:13,040
dojo in which we both train

3173
01:54:21,430 --> 01:54:15,119
how to wrestle with that

3174
01:54:22,709 --> 01:54:21,440
and so i think there's an urgency uh

3175
01:54:25,669 --> 01:54:22,719
now

3176
01:54:28,390 --> 01:54:25,679
to get i think covet accelerated in

3177
01:54:30,070 --> 01:54:28,400
certain ways to give more prominence to

3178
01:54:32,470 --> 01:54:30,080
this dialogue this kind of biological

3179
01:54:33,960 --> 01:54:32,480
space and practice um

3180
01:54:35,589 --> 01:54:33,970
so i guess for me

3181
01:54:36,709 --> 01:54:35,599
[Music]

3182
01:54:40,470 --> 01:54:36,719
i want to push

3183
01:54:43,030 --> 01:54:41,910
uh because

3184
01:54:43,830 --> 01:54:43,040
i uh

3185
01:54:48,629 --> 01:54:43,840
the

3186
01:54:50,390 --> 01:54:48,639
of distress and loss of agency uh seem

3187
01:54:53,270 --> 01:54:50,400
to be going up by several

3188
01:54:54,950 --> 01:54:53,280
sort of objective march of markers and

3189
01:54:56,550 --> 01:54:54,960
so i'm concerned

3190
01:54:57,589 --> 01:54:56,560
that

3191
01:55:00,709 --> 01:54:57,599
i don't think

3192
01:55:02,950 --> 01:55:00,719
academic world is turning to this

3193
01:55:04,790 --> 01:55:02,960
problem and i think this is a better

3194
01:55:07,109 --> 01:55:04,800
forum in which

3195
01:55:07,910 --> 01:55:07,119
we can start to explore what we need to

3196
01:55:10,149 --> 01:55:07,920
do

3197
01:55:12,629 --> 01:55:10,159
in order to address that problem so for

3198
01:55:16,870 --> 01:55:12,639
me that urgency

3199
01:55:19,990 --> 01:55:18,470
part of what i was trying to put my

3200
01:55:21,750 --> 01:55:20,000
finger on when i said

3201
01:55:23,830 --> 01:55:21,760
we need to be doing more of this this is

3202
01:55:26,070 --> 01:55:23,840
valuable this is central this shouldn't

3203
01:55:27,830 --> 01:55:26,080
be on the sidelines it should be in the

3204
01:55:29,430 --> 01:55:27,840
center and

3205
01:55:31,510 --> 01:55:29,440
and there's difficult tasks there's very

3206
01:55:33,750 --> 01:55:31,520
practical tasks of how do we make this

3207
01:55:35,669 --> 01:55:33,760
more attractive to a wider audience of

3208
01:55:37,430 --> 01:55:35,679
people um

3209
01:55:38,629 --> 01:55:37,440
and how do we make it attractive so we

3210
01:55:39,589 --> 01:55:38,639
can draw some of the first kind of

3211
01:55:42,070 --> 01:55:39,599
people

3212
01:55:43,189 --> 01:55:42,080
in and how do we make it attractive so

3213
01:55:45,030 --> 01:55:43,199
that

3214
01:55:47,990 --> 01:55:45,040
we don't automatically exclude the

3215
01:55:49,750 --> 01:55:48,000
crazies um i agree

3216
01:55:51,189 --> 01:55:49,760
with that i mean but you don't want you

3217
01:55:52,390 --> 01:55:51,199
don't want you don't want just sock you

3218
01:55:54,870 --> 01:55:52,400
don't want a room to fill with just

3219
01:55:57,750 --> 01:55:54,880
socrates a bunch of socrates uh he was

3220
01:55:59,430 --> 01:55:57,760
at boss he didn't fit in and they killed

3221
01:56:01,350 --> 01:55:59,440
him um

3222
01:56:04,550 --> 01:56:01,360
and so um

3223
01:56:07,270 --> 01:56:04,560
i think these for me

3224
01:56:10,790 --> 01:56:07,280
these questions are are are becoming

3225
01:56:11,830 --> 01:56:10,800
increasingly central about how do we

3226
01:56:13,830 --> 01:56:11,840
make

3227
01:56:16,550 --> 01:56:13,840
this what we're doing here

3228
01:56:18,870 --> 01:56:16,560
into an attractive way of life

3229
01:56:19,669 --> 01:56:18,880
uh for people what do you mean by way of

3230
01:56:23,589 --> 01:56:19,679
life

3231
01:56:26,470 --> 01:56:23,599
so what i mean by this is that uh

3232
01:56:29,030 --> 01:56:26,480
and i think you said that like

3233
01:56:31,350 --> 01:56:29,040
for me

3234
01:56:34,390 --> 01:56:31,360
exploring these ideas is not something i

3235
01:56:36,070 --> 01:56:34,400
do to get sort of an intellectual orgasm

3236
01:56:37,189 --> 01:56:36,080
and oh that was cool

3237
01:56:39,990 --> 01:56:37,199
right

3238
01:56:42,629 --> 01:56:40,000
ultimately i i want to

3239
01:56:44,070 --> 01:56:42,639
be able to explore these ideas in a way

3240
01:56:46,629 --> 01:56:44,080
that can

3241
01:56:48,390 --> 01:56:46,639
um ameliorate

3242
01:56:50,390 --> 01:56:48,400
people's sense of being disconnected

3243
01:56:52,870 --> 01:56:50,400
from themselves from the world

3244
01:56:53,910 --> 01:56:52,880
from each other

3245
01:56:56,070 --> 01:56:53,920
and so

3246
01:56:57,189 --> 01:56:56,080
if i get a deeper understanding of the

3247
01:56:58,790 --> 01:56:57,199
mind

3248
01:56:59,990 --> 01:56:58,800
and consciousness

3249
01:57:01,910 --> 01:57:00,000
and meaning

3250
01:57:03,990 --> 01:57:01,920
um

3251
01:57:07,030 --> 01:57:04,000
i want to i want that to ultimately be

3252
01:57:08,149 --> 01:57:07,040
in service of helping people

3253
01:57:09,750 --> 01:57:08,159
to whether they

3254
01:57:10,709 --> 01:57:09,760
they feel comfortable with and capable

3255
01:57:13,990 --> 01:57:10,719
of

3256
01:57:22,149 --> 01:57:14,000
in

3257
01:57:26,390 --> 01:57:22,159
collectively to make better sense

3258
01:57:29,270 --> 01:57:26,400
like let's use a let's use a a model

3259
01:57:30,709 --> 01:57:29,280
a historical right christianity and i'm

3260
01:57:33,189 --> 01:57:30,719
not i'm not a christian i'm not

3261
01:57:34,550 --> 01:57:33,199
proselytizing for it was able to create

3262
01:57:37,109 --> 01:57:34,560
this structure that went from like

3263
01:57:39,430 --> 01:57:37,119
aquinas to somebody's grandmother and

3264
01:57:42,149 --> 01:57:39,440
got you get them to interact together

3265
01:57:44,470 --> 01:57:42,159
coordinate together uh work together

3266
01:57:45,510 --> 01:57:44,480
have a shared sense of connectedness

3267
01:57:48,310 --> 01:57:45,520
meaning

3268
01:57:50,629 --> 01:57:48,320
um that's the kind of thing i think we

3269
01:57:52,070 --> 01:57:50,639
need i'm not proposing a religion here i

3270
01:57:53,830 --> 01:57:52,080
sometimes say i'm proposing a religion

3271
01:57:56,070 --> 01:57:53,840
that's not a religion that's what i'm

3272
01:57:57,910 --> 01:57:56,080
talking about kurt i'm talking about the

3273
01:57:59,510 --> 01:57:57,920
the these

3274
01:58:03,350 --> 01:57:59,520
in the end

3275
01:58:05,830 --> 01:58:03,360
don't really care deeply about what you

3276
01:58:07,350 --> 01:58:05,840
believe i care about what you practice

3277
01:58:09,669 --> 01:58:07,360
i care about how are you transforming

3278
01:58:11,750 --> 01:58:09,679
yourself and how are you affording other

3279
01:58:14,229 --> 01:58:11,760
people to transform themselves in a way

3280
01:58:15,990 --> 01:58:14,239
that makes lives less beset by

3281
01:58:17,030 --> 01:58:16,000
foolishness

3282
01:58:18,790 --> 01:58:17,040
more

3283
01:58:20,870 --> 01:58:18,800
enhanced by wisdom

3284
01:58:22,470 --> 01:58:20,880
and and and flourishing for individuals

3285
01:58:24,229 --> 01:58:22,480
that's what i'm that's what i ultimately

3286
01:58:25,830 --> 01:58:24,239
care about

3287
01:58:28,070 --> 01:58:25,840
did that answer your question yeah what

3288
01:58:29,510 --> 01:58:28,080
would happen if that goal of

3289
01:58:32,310 --> 01:58:29,520
helping people

3290
01:58:34,070 --> 01:58:32,320
contradicted the goal of let's say

3291
01:58:35,030 --> 01:58:34,080
investigating reality whatever that

3292
01:58:36,629 --> 01:58:35,040
means

3293
01:58:38,790 --> 01:58:36,639
so for example let's say you found out

3294
01:58:40,950 --> 01:58:38,800
some truth via some scientific

3295
01:58:43,350 --> 01:58:40,960
investigation that would destabilize

3296
01:58:46,070 --> 01:58:43,360
people that would make them feel worse

3297
01:58:47,669 --> 01:58:46,080
that would disconnect us so then

3298
01:58:49,510 --> 01:58:47,679
what do you do you make the decision to

3299
01:58:51,750 --> 01:58:49,520
not publish that to not investigate that

3300
01:58:54,390 --> 01:58:51,760
further

3301
01:58:56,629 --> 01:58:54,400
um i i

3302
01:59:00,070 --> 01:58:56,639
i guess my response to that is

3303
01:59:01,270 --> 01:59:00,080
um i ha i have a certain kind of

3304
01:59:04,070 --> 01:59:01,280
confidence

3305
01:59:05,589 --> 01:59:04,080
in the true the interconnection between

3306
01:59:08,229 --> 01:59:05,599
things being true

3307
01:59:09,270 --> 01:59:08,239
and then ultimately being good

3308
01:59:11,990 --> 01:59:09,280
in fact

3309
01:59:14,310 --> 01:59:12,000
we have to view truth as a kind of good

3310
01:59:17,430 --> 01:59:14,320
in order to explain what we're doing as

3311
01:59:19,189 --> 01:59:17,440
scientists um there's something about

3312
01:59:21,270 --> 01:59:19,199
you know nasdaq's experience machine

3313
01:59:23,510 --> 01:59:21,280
right here let me give you an example

3314
01:59:26,070 --> 01:59:23,520
from i do this in my classroom

3315
01:59:27,669 --> 01:59:26,080
i ask people how many of you are in

3316
01:59:29,189 --> 01:59:27,679
satisfying romantic relationships

3317
01:59:30,629 --> 01:59:29,199
romantic relations are really important

3318
01:59:32,629 --> 01:59:30,639
in our culture because they sort of take

3319
01:59:33,910 --> 01:59:32,639
the role of religion

3320
01:59:35,589 --> 01:59:33,920
right

3321
01:59:37,510 --> 01:59:35,599
and because you ask people what do you

3322
01:59:38,870 --> 01:59:37,520
need to be happy romantic relationship

3323
01:59:41,669 --> 01:59:38,880
and what causes you the most suffering

3324
01:59:42,790 --> 01:59:41,679
romantic relationships so right

3325
01:59:46,149 --> 01:59:42,800
and i ask how many of you are in

3326
01:59:47,270 --> 01:59:46,159
satisfying romantic relationships

3327
01:59:49,270 --> 01:59:47,280
i think you know i get a certain

3328
01:59:51,109 --> 01:59:49,280
percentage i said of these people

3329
01:59:53,189 --> 01:59:51,119
how many of you would want to know that

3330
01:59:54,310 --> 01:59:53,199
your partner was cheating on you even if

3331
01:59:56,709 --> 01:59:54,320
that meant the destruction of the

3332
01:59:59,510 --> 01:59:56,719
relationship 95 of the people keep their

3333
02:00:02,470 --> 01:59:59,520
hand up

3334
02:00:06,070 --> 02:00:02,480
there's there's there's a there's a

3335
02:00:08,070 --> 02:00:06,080
there's a valuing a meaning of being

3336
02:00:09,910 --> 02:00:08,080
connected to what's real

3337
02:00:11,350 --> 02:00:09,920
that seems to be this is one of plato's

3338
02:00:13,430 --> 02:00:11,360
arguments that seems to be kind of a

3339
02:00:15,350 --> 02:00:13,440
meta desire

3340
02:00:17,270 --> 02:00:15,360
in addition to whatever we desire we

3341
02:00:19,109 --> 02:00:17,280
have a meta desire that what satisfies

3342
02:00:20,709 --> 02:00:19,119
that desire is real

3343
02:00:24,830 --> 02:00:20,719
in some fashion which is why i was

3344
02:00:28,870 --> 02:00:24,840
pressing on realness so much with yosha

3345
02:00:30,950 --> 02:00:28,880
so well what i want to say is um there's

3346
02:00:31,750 --> 02:00:30,960
a presumption in your question

3347
02:00:32,870 --> 02:00:31,760
that

3348
02:00:35,030 --> 02:00:32,880
right

3349
02:00:36,629 --> 02:00:35,040
there isn't an intrinsic value or

3350
02:00:38,709 --> 02:00:36,639
goodness to

3351
02:00:41,189 --> 02:00:38,719
uh discovering what's real and i think

3352
02:00:44,390 --> 02:00:41,199
there is um and then what

3353
02:00:47,990 --> 02:00:45,750
transform themselves because so they

3354
02:00:49,589 --> 02:00:48,000
come into greater conformity to that

3355
02:00:51,030 --> 02:00:49,599
yeah that's what i think it means to

3356
02:00:53,189 --> 02:00:51,040
cultivate wisdom

3357
02:00:56,070 --> 02:00:53,199
and so i put i sort of put my

3358
02:00:57,510 --> 02:00:56,080
trust not in the particular metaphysics

3359
02:00:59,589 --> 02:00:57,520
of the wisdom traditions but the fact

3360
02:01:01,109 --> 02:00:59,599
that we've had wisdom traditions

3361
02:01:04,629 --> 02:01:01,119
and we have

3362
02:01:06,709 --> 02:01:04,639
reliably found people to become

3363
02:01:08,390 --> 02:01:06,719
people to be capable of becoming wiser

3364
02:01:10,550 --> 02:01:08,400
and certain individuals to be wiser than

3365
02:01:12,870 --> 02:01:10,560
others

3366
02:01:15,030 --> 02:01:12,880
so what i'm saying it i have i put faith

3367
02:01:16,149 --> 02:01:15,040
in those two things together that's what

3368
02:01:17,669 --> 02:01:16,159
i'm saying

3369
02:01:19,430 --> 02:01:17,679
yoshi i was going to ask if you have any

3370
02:01:22,390 --> 02:01:19,440
comments on that

3371
02:01:24,870 --> 02:01:22,400
yeah we found that we joined and we

3372
02:01:25,669 --> 02:01:24,880
don't have differences at least not in

3373
02:01:30,470 --> 02:01:25,679
the

3374
02:01:33,350 --> 02:01:30,480
couple hours we mostly had very similar

3375
02:01:36,390 --> 02:01:33,360
approaches and ideas and we developed

3376
02:01:37,990 --> 02:01:36,400
our terms together in ways that was very

3377
02:01:40,470 --> 02:01:38,000
harmonic

3378
02:01:43,109 --> 02:01:40,480
we might have a difference in the reason

3379
02:01:44,629 --> 02:01:43,119
why we do things it seems to me that

3380
02:01:47,350 --> 02:01:44,639
john has a different relationship to

3381
02:01:49,030 --> 02:01:47,360
normativity than me and maybe we can go

3382
02:01:51,350 --> 02:01:49,040
into this question later but basically

3383
02:01:53,589 --> 02:01:51,360
from my perspective looks like john sees

3384
02:01:57,750 --> 02:01:53,599
himself as a spiritual teacher

3385
02:02:02,390 --> 02:02:00,550
maturity to see myself as a spiritual

3386
02:02:05,030 --> 02:02:02,400
teacher with integrity i also don't know

3387
02:02:07,189 --> 02:02:05,040
what i would get out of this my

3388
02:02:09,510 --> 02:02:07,199
own observation of the meaning crisis is

3389
02:02:11,669 --> 02:02:09,520
that it's inevitable because the

3390
02:02:13,669 --> 02:02:11,679
civilization that we are part of doesn't

3391
02:02:15,510 --> 02:02:13,679
have much of a future

3392
02:02:17,189 --> 02:02:15,520
and

3393
02:02:19,270 --> 02:02:17,199
there is no way in which the

3394
02:02:21,910 --> 02:02:19,280
civilization can be fixed without

3395
02:02:23,030 --> 02:02:21,920
changing some of its core assumptions

3396
02:02:27,430 --> 02:02:23,040
and

3397
02:02:29,189 --> 02:02:27,440
reflected in the fact that our

3398
02:02:31,189 --> 02:02:29,199
civilization is not projecting itself

3399
02:02:33,510 --> 02:02:31,199
into the future we have no models that

3400
02:02:36,070 --> 02:02:33,520
we discuss with our children in school

3401
02:02:38,950 --> 02:02:36,080
or in our institutions we have no plans

3402
02:02:40,950 --> 02:02:38,960
that go beyond the next few decades it's

3403
02:02:42,790 --> 02:02:40,960
not that we actually think about what

3404
02:02:45,750 --> 02:02:42,800
will life on earth look like for our

3405
02:02:47,030 --> 02:02:45,760
civilization in 500 years from now

3406
02:02:49,589 --> 02:02:47,040
and that's new

3407
02:02:51,430 --> 02:02:49,599
this was not true in in the christian

3408
02:02:52,790 --> 02:02:51,440
society for instance they had an idea of

3409
02:02:54,550 --> 02:02:52,800
what was going to happen in a few

3410
02:02:55,830 --> 02:02:54,560
hundred years from then and this idea

3411
02:02:57,430 --> 02:02:55,840
might have been wrong but they made

3412
02:02:59,350 --> 02:02:57,440
plans for it and some of these plans

3413
02:03:01,589 --> 02:02:59,360
came to pass and we don't have that kind

3414
02:03:04,709 --> 02:03:01,599
of planning horizon anymore so we

3415
02:03:07,990 --> 02:03:04,719
basically are now in an organism as a

3416
02:03:09,990 --> 02:03:08,000
hyper organism uh that is past its prime

3417
02:03:11,510 --> 02:03:10,000
that is in some sense visibly in its

3418
02:03:13,830 --> 02:03:11,520
autumn and that is

3419
02:03:16,390 --> 02:03:13,840
uh facing off against all sorts of

3420
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:16,400
existential risks and we feel helpless

3421
02:03:21,189 --> 02:03:18,639
at dealing with these risks and as a

3422
02:03:22,870 --> 02:03:21,199
result we don't have a shared purpose we

3423
02:03:25,350 --> 02:03:22,880
might have a shared purpose as an

3424
02:03:27,510 --> 02:03:25,360
individual with a family with children

3425
02:03:30,149 --> 02:03:27,520
with friends but we don't seem to

3426
02:03:31,990 --> 02:03:30,159
project this shared purpose anymore at a

3427
02:03:34,070 --> 02:03:32,000
societal level and there are only small

3428
02:03:36,470 --> 02:03:34,080
groups within the societies some

3429
02:03:39,189 --> 02:03:36,480
evangelical cults and transhumanist

3430
02:03:41,830 --> 02:03:39,199
skulls and so on that try to maintain

3431
02:03:43,830 --> 02:03:41,840
the fiction of a future that they're

3432
02:03:46,070 --> 02:03:43,840
acting with but not at the level of the

3433
02:03:47,750 --> 02:03:46,080
entire civilization it is the level of

3434
02:03:49,990 --> 02:03:47,760
this individual group

3435
02:03:53,350 --> 02:03:50,000
and our mainstream

3436
02:03:56,390 --> 02:03:53,360
bad guys deals with this mostly by uh

3437
02:03:57,270 --> 02:03:56,400
despair or denial yes

3438
02:04:00,470 --> 02:03:57,280
and

3439
02:04:03,189 --> 02:04:00,480
or even an outright nihilism

3440
02:04:05,270 --> 02:04:03,199
and i don't have an argument against

3441
02:04:07,669 --> 02:04:05,280
that nihilism because i think that from

3442
02:04:09,510 --> 02:04:07,679
the perspective of the

3443
02:04:10,950 --> 02:04:09,520
civilizational hive mind this is

3444
02:04:12,709 --> 02:04:10,960
justified

3445
02:04:14,390 --> 02:04:12,719
and if we want to build something new we

3446
02:04:15,910 --> 02:04:14,400
have to do this from the vantage point

3447
02:04:18,390 --> 02:04:15,920
of the next civilization and that's

3448
02:04:19,510 --> 02:04:18,400
almost impossible to maintain the space

3449
02:04:21,350 --> 02:04:19,520
in your own mind what the next

3450
02:04:22,870 --> 02:04:21,360
civilization would be looking like and

3451
02:04:24,870 --> 02:04:22,880
how to build it

3452
02:04:27,109 --> 02:04:24,880
so the only thing that i have to offer

3453
02:04:28,470 --> 02:04:27,119
in terms of spiritual guidance is that i

3454
02:04:31,910 --> 02:04:28,480
hug my friends

3455
02:04:33,589 --> 02:04:31,920
and uh there's not that much more and uh

3456
02:04:35,750 --> 02:04:33,599
and so it's more

3457
02:04:37,589 --> 02:04:35,760
when we know the possibility that i

3458
02:04:39,109 --> 02:04:37,599
could offer somebody that i say this is

3459
02:04:40,870 --> 02:04:39,119
how you fix your life this is how you

3460
02:04:43,030 --> 02:04:40,880
fix your relationship to the world this

3461
02:04:44,870 --> 02:04:43,040
is how you fix your relationship to

3462
02:04:46,550 --> 02:04:44,880
society and this is how you fix your

3463
02:04:48,470 --> 02:04:46,560
society itself because they don't have

3464
02:04:50,149 --> 02:04:48,480
these kinds of answers i don't know what

3465
02:04:52,070 --> 02:04:50,159
these answers would look like i'm

3466
02:04:54,709 --> 02:04:52,080
willing to look for them i'm willing to

3467
02:04:57,109 --> 02:04:54,719
look for them with others but i'm not uh

3468
02:05:00,070 --> 02:04:57,119
convinced that there is an answer

3469
02:05:02,790 --> 02:05:00,080
and instead there is more place that we

3470
02:05:05,430 --> 02:05:02,800
can get to and this place comes from

3471
02:05:06,390 --> 02:05:05,440
attempt to develop integrity and to be

3472
02:05:08,629 --> 02:05:06,400
truthful

3473
02:05:10,629 --> 02:05:08,639
and i agree with john that

3474
02:05:12,470 --> 02:05:10,639
truth is crucial because truth is

3475
02:05:14,550 --> 02:05:12,480
instrumental to good regulation it's

3476
02:05:17,109 --> 02:05:14,560
even reflected in cybernetics in the

3477
02:05:19,430 --> 02:05:17,119
good regulator theorem you cannot

3478
02:05:23,109 --> 02:05:19,440
uh regulate reality when you're not

3479
02:05:25,270 --> 02:05:23,119
truthful about it so the attempt to bend

3480
02:05:27,589 --> 02:05:25,280
your worldview to make it more desirable

3481
02:05:29,350 --> 02:05:27,599
to deny the things that don't fit into

3482
02:05:31,270 --> 02:05:29,360
the world that you prefer as the just

3483
02:05:32,950 --> 02:05:31,280
one and so on is not going to lead to a

3484
02:05:35,189 --> 02:05:32,960
better world it's going to lead to a

3485
02:05:38,149 --> 02:05:35,199
world that is worse

3486
02:05:40,870 --> 02:05:38,159
and so you need when you want to model

3487
02:05:43,750 --> 02:05:40,880
the world do this in a space that is

3488
02:05:45,750 --> 02:05:43,760
independent of what you want to be true

3489
02:05:47,430 --> 02:05:45,760
so there need to be two parts of us one

3490
02:05:49,750 --> 02:05:47,440
that is modeling the world this

3491
02:05:51,430 --> 02:05:49,760
detachment

3492
02:05:52,870 --> 02:05:51,440
it's not important who is looking at the

3493
02:05:54,229 --> 02:05:52,880
world and why

3494
02:05:55,990 --> 02:05:54,239
and another one where you make your

3495
02:05:58,310 --> 02:05:56,000
personal bets and where you construct

3496
02:05:59,589 --> 02:05:58,320
your aesthetics based on what you think

3497
02:06:00,870 --> 02:05:59,599
is true

3498
02:06:02,709 --> 02:06:00,880
and

3499
02:06:05,589 --> 02:06:02,719
this separation is something that is not

3500
02:06:06,870 --> 02:06:05,599
a consensus in the uh disciplines that

3501
02:06:08,629 --> 02:06:06,880
think about what the world should be

3502
02:06:10,550 --> 02:06:08,639
looking like so for instance there are

3503
02:06:12,550 --> 02:06:10,560
very few sociologists that look at the

3504
02:06:14,950 --> 02:06:12,560
world with detachment they largely do

3505
02:06:16,310 --> 02:06:14,960
this from a very local perspective that

3506
02:06:17,510 --> 02:06:16,320
is congruent with what their friends

3507
02:06:20,229 --> 02:06:17,520
think and that is basically

3508
02:06:22,229 --> 02:06:20,239
characterized by the present ideology

3509
02:06:24,470 --> 02:06:22,239
and i don't think that you can be

3510
02:06:26,550 --> 02:06:24,480
ideological and truthful at the same

3511
02:06:30,229 --> 02:06:26,560
time where the allergy

3512
02:06:31,270 --> 02:06:30,239
commits you to seeing the certain way of

3513
02:06:33,830 --> 02:06:31,280
the things that are happening in the

3514
02:06:36,310 --> 02:06:33,840
world regardless of the facts

3515
02:06:37,910 --> 02:06:36,320
that you are observing and it makes you

3516
02:06:39,830 --> 02:06:37,920
inclined to pick certain facts over

3517
02:06:40,950 --> 02:06:39,840
others to support this particular kind

3518
02:06:42,470 --> 02:06:40,960
of aesthetic

3519
02:06:45,350 --> 02:06:42,480
and for me the aesthetic is something

3520
02:06:49,189 --> 02:06:45,360
that needs to be developed independently

3521
02:06:51,990 --> 02:06:49,199
of the reasoning about what is the case

3522
02:06:54,629 --> 02:06:52,000
and since the most people that think

3523
02:06:56,950 --> 02:06:54,639
normatively prefer to be part of the

3524
02:06:59,430 --> 02:06:56,960
hivemind before they are truthful

3525
02:07:02,069 --> 02:06:59,440
autonomously i have difficulty with the

3526
02:07:04,229 --> 02:07:02,079
general notion of normativity my own

3527
02:07:06,550 --> 02:07:04,239
thinking is when i do philosophy

3528
02:07:08,950 --> 02:07:06,560
primarily not normative

3529
02:07:10,470 --> 02:07:08,960
i'm thinking about everything that could

3530
02:07:12,390 --> 02:07:10,480
be the case i'm not thinking about what

3531
02:07:15,109 --> 02:07:12,400
should be the case every should is an if

3532
02:07:17,830 --> 02:07:15,910
um

3533
02:07:20,229 --> 02:07:17,840
there's a lot i i have an agreement with

3534
02:07:22,069 --> 02:07:20,239
about uh what you said there uh about

3535
02:07:24,830 --> 02:07:22,079
the the meaning crisis

3536
02:07:26,550 --> 02:07:24,840
um i guess part

3537
02:07:27,910 --> 02:07:26,560
of uh

3538
02:07:28,550 --> 02:07:27,920
what

3539
02:07:52,149 --> 02:07:28,560
i

3540
02:07:54,790 --> 02:07:52,159
etc

3541
02:07:56,310 --> 02:07:54,800
and i think it's one of the things we

3542
02:07:57,030 --> 02:07:56,320
should do is consider

3543
02:07:59,270 --> 02:07:57,040
uh

3544
02:08:01,830 --> 02:07:59,280
increasing the wisdom of people

3545
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:01,840
um i think that's a viable project

3546
02:08:06,629 --> 02:08:04,560
um and in conjunction with that

3547
02:08:09,510 --> 02:08:06,639
um

3548
02:08:18,629 --> 02:08:09,520
i

3549
02:08:20,950 --> 02:08:18,639
bronze age collapse or perhaps the

3550
02:08:24,470 --> 02:08:20,960
collapse of the western roman empire

3551
02:08:28,629 --> 02:08:25,589
you had

3552
02:08:30,790 --> 02:08:28,639
the building of new communities

3553
02:08:34,149 --> 02:08:30,800
and communities of communities that made

3554
02:08:36,709 --> 02:08:34,159
possible new ways of life for people

3555
02:08:38,149 --> 02:08:36,719
and were able to

3556
02:08:39,750 --> 02:08:38,159
take

3557
02:08:42,229 --> 02:08:39,760
uh salvage

3558
02:08:44,069 --> 02:08:42,239
what the the

3559
02:08:46,310 --> 02:08:44,079
previous civil legislation had done and

3560
02:08:47,990 --> 02:08:46,320
exact it into the next civilization a

3561
02:08:49,750 --> 02:08:48,000
prototypical example of this is be

3562
02:08:52,069 --> 02:08:49,760
somebody like augustine you know the

3563
02:08:53,750 --> 02:08:52,079
barbarians are literally at the gate and

3564
02:08:55,750 --> 02:08:53,760
he is shepherding

3565
02:08:58,310 --> 02:08:55,760
sort of the greco-roman heritage into

3566
02:09:01,109 --> 02:08:58,320
christianity and he's modifying it he's

3567
02:09:02,950 --> 02:09:01,119
coming up with a new way of being he's

3568
02:09:04,629 --> 02:09:02,960
the autobiographical self comes into

3569
02:09:06,390 --> 02:09:04,639
kind of awareness

3570
02:09:07,990 --> 02:09:06,400
you know there's a new way of being a

3571
02:09:09,830 --> 02:09:08,000
person new way of being a community new

3572
02:09:11,430 --> 02:09:09,840
way of being in relationship to the

3573
02:09:13,030 --> 02:09:11,440
world i'm not saying he did this

3574
02:09:15,669 --> 02:09:13,040
single-handedly i'm just using it as a

3575
02:09:18,069 --> 02:09:15,679
case and helps to build uh the

3576
02:09:20,310 --> 02:09:18,079
possibilities of the next civilization

3577
02:09:21,589 --> 02:09:20,320
now i'm not arrogant i hope i'm not so

3578
02:09:23,189 --> 02:09:21,599
arrogant to think and i know i'm

3579
02:09:24,550 --> 02:09:23,199
augustine and i know what it is it's

3580
02:09:27,189 --> 02:09:24,560
going to be turn up i think we should be

3581
02:09:30,830 --> 02:09:27,199
getting a lot of people trying to build

3582
02:09:34,310 --> 02:09:30,840
right these models these ways

3583
02:09:36,790 --> 02:09:34,320
um because

3584
02:09:38,790 --> 02:09:36,800
typically if you have that kind of a

3585
02:09:41,669 --> 02:09:38,800
translation

3586
02:09:43,750 --> 02:09:41,679
process already in place you get to the

3587
02:09:45,030 --> 02:09:43,760
next civilization with much less

3588
02:09:47,109 --> 02:09:45,040
suffering

3589
02:09:49,910 --> 02:09:47,119
i'm not convinced that

3590
02:09:51,189 --> 02:09:49,920
we can like you that we can save this

3591
02:09:54,950 --> 02:09:51,199
but we have

3592
02:09:56,470 --> 02:09:54,960
um but i guess i want to find out what

3593
02:09:57,750 --> 02:09:56,480
is the best way individually and

3594
02:09:59,830 --> 02:09:57,760
collectively

3595
02:10:00,870 --> 02:09:59,840
of collecting the candles from what we

3596
02:10:03,270 --> 02:10:00,880
have made

3597
02:10:06,390 --> 02:10:03,280
so that we can carry them into and make

3598
02:10:08,470 --> 02:10:06,400
it possible for our children um

3599
02:10:09,750 --> 02:10:08,480
and so this is for me a way of trying to

3600
02:10:10,629 --> 02:10:09,760
get back

3601
02:10:13,430 --> 02:10:10,639
to

3602
02:10:15,109 --> 02:10:13,440
the a generational relationship like you

3603
02:10:17,990 --> 02:10:15,119
were talking about where it's not just

3604
02:10:19,830 --> 02:10:18,000
me here now in distraction or despair

3605
02:10:21,109 --> 02:10:19,840
but trying to ask

3606
02:10:23,109 --> 02:10:21,119
like and i don't mean this

3607
02:10:24,709 --> 02:10:23,119
technologically or sociologically or

3608
02:10:26,310 --> 02:10:24,719
politically

3609
02:10:27,350 --> 02:10:26,320
trying to ask

3610
02:10:29,830 --> 02:10:27,360
look for

3611
02:10:33,189 --> 02:10:29,840
where are people trying to build what

3612
02:10:36,069 --> 02:10:33,199
looked like viable possible new ways uh

3613
02:10:37,350 --> 02:10:36,079
for being in a civilization

3614
02:10:38,470 --> 02:10:37,360
and we know that this has been done in

3615
02:10:39,510 --> 02:10:38,480
the past

3616
02:10:41,830 --> 02:10:39,520
and

3617
02:10:43,589 --> 02:10:41,840
this isn't an algorithm it can't be but

3618
02:10:45,030 --> 02:10:43,599
we can look at those historical figures

3619
02:10:47,030 --> 02:10:45,040
we can look at many of those historical

3620
02:10:49,350 --> 02:10:47,040
examples and try and glean sort of the

3621
02:10:51,669 --> 02:10:49,360
best lessons possible that's what i'm

3622
02:10:53,990 --> 02:10:51,679
proposing i i i'm definitely not

3623
02:10:56,629 --> 02:10:54,000
founding a religion or anything like

3624
02:11:00,629 --> 02:10:56,639
that i i i'm not the right person for

3625
02:11:01,669 --> 02:11:00,639
the job i don't want the job and um so

3626
02:11:03,270 --> 02:11:01,679
if that's

3627
02:11:06,390 --> 02:11:03,280
if that means i see myself as a

3628
02:11:07,589 --> 02:11:06,400
spiritual practitioner um so be it i'm

3629
02:11:08,950 --> 02:11:07,599
fine with that but i just wanted to

3630
02:11:11,270 --> 02:11:08,960
clarify

3631
02:11:13,830 --> 02:11:11,280
what i'm proposing i'm i'm proposing

3632
02:11:15,189 --> 02:11:13,840
something that is possible at least we

3633
02:11:17,270 --> 02:11:15,199
have

3634
02:11:20,470 --> 02:11:17,280
i think relevantly similar cases from

3635
02:11:21,910 --> 02:11:20,480
history of where this has worked

3636
02:11:23,270 --> 02:11:21,920
you can see it like i say two i've

3637
02:11:24,390 --> 02:11:23,280
looked at carefully of the axial

3638
02:11:27,830 --> 02:11:24,400
revolution

3639
02:11:33,589 --> 02:11:31,910
the end of the western roman empire

3640
02:11:35,189 --> 02:11:33,599
that's what i'm proposing that's what

3641
02:11:36,709 --> 02:11:35,199
i'm proposing

3642
02:11:38,709 --> 02:11:36,719
i have a question for both of you we'll

3643
02:11:40,470 --> 02:11:38,719
start with yosha you mentioned that you

3644
02:11:41,990 --> 02:11:40,480
have this relationship with your ideas

3645
02:11:44,310 --> 02:11:42,000
which is that you don't devote yourself

3646
02:11:46,390 --> 02:11:44,320
to them they're not they're tentative

3647
02:11:48,550 --> 02:11:46,400
and i'm curious in the past two years

3648
02:11:50,390 --> 02:11:48,560
what's an idea that you used to believe

3649
02:11:52,390 --> 02:11:50,400
most that you no longer believe and then

3650
02:11:55,109 --> 02:11:52,400
what led you to that decision that's for

3651
02:12:00,390 --> 02:11:55,119
both of you but we'll start with yosha

3652
02:12:05,030 --> 02:12:02,550
so let's say in the most recent past two

3653
02:12:09,030 --> 02:12:07,189
um but

3654
02:12:10,629 --> 02:12:09,040
it usually doesn't feel like a big

3655
02:12:13,510 --> 02:12:10,639
revolution it's more a gradual

3656
02:12:14,790 --> 02:12:13,520
progression or sometimes uh a new vista

3657
02:12:17,589 --> 02:12:14,800
opens up

3658
02:12:19,430 --> 02:12:17,599
and there are a few thoughts that

3659
02:12:21,750 --> 02:12:19,440
now are interesting to me that is for

3660
02:12:24,069 --> 02:12:21,760
instance how can a system discover

3661
02:12:25,990 --> 02:12:24,079
itself in the world that i see more

3662
02:12:29,350 --> 02:12:26,000
central than before there are a few

3663
02:12:31,910 --> 02:12:29,360
notions that i take to be

3664
02:12:33,270 --> 02:12:31,920
possible that i didn't explore before

3665
02:12:35,030 --> 02:12:33,280
so uh

3666
02:12:37,350 --> 02:12:35,040
something that i'm exploring right now

3667
02:12:38,629 --> 02:12:37,360
is for instance the idea of

3668
02:12:40,470 --> 02:12:38,639
um

3669
02:12:43,350 --> 02:12:40,480
memory knot store being stored in

3670
02:12:46,470 --> 02:12:43,360
synaptic weights only but being stored

3671
02:12:47,669 --> 02:12:46,480
in uh the soma of neurons in the form of

3672
02:12:49,270 --> 02:12:47,679
rna

3673
02:12:51,109 --> 02:12:49,280
and this leads to a

3674
02:12:53,109 --> 02:12:51,119
radical

3675
02:12:54,870 --> 02:12:53,119
change in the way in which i think about

3676
02:12:56,550 --> 02:12:54,880
the formation of memory and the

3677
02:12:58,390 --> 02:12:56,560
execution of

3678
02:12:59,270 --> 02:12:58,400
functions in the brain

3679
02:13:01,030 --> 02:12:59,280
and

3680
02:13:03,430 --> 02:13:01,040
it's not normative in the sense that i

3681
02:13:05,990 --> 02:13:03,440
now believe that we should be things

3682
02:13:07,510 --> 02:13:06,000
doing differently but it it changes the

3683
02:13:09,830 --> 02:13:07,520
way in which i think about neural

3684
02:13:11,510 --> 02:13:09,840
computation and leads me to

3685
02:13:13,109 --> 02:13:11,520
envisioning new experiments that need to

3686
02:13:14,830 --> 02:13:13,119
be done to figure out whether this is

3687
02:13:17,589 --> 02:13:14,840
the case

3688
02:13:19,430 --> 02:13:17,599
and this is an example of where my

3689
02:13:22,069 --> 02:13:19,440
perspective has shifted or another one

3690
02:13:23,430 --> 02:13:22,079
is uh the role of consciousness

3691
02:13:24,629 --> 02:13:23,440
so for instance i

3692
02:13:27,109 --> 02:13:24,639
uh

3693
02:13:29,990 --> 02:13:27,119
used to think that consciousness might

3694
02:13:32,390 --> 02:13:30,000
be a side effect of the way in which

3695
02:13:34,629 --> 02:13:32,400
cognition works in human brains

3696
02:13:37,510 --> 02:13:34,639
and that other systems that process

3697
02:13:40,229 --> 02:13:37,520
information uh in the service of agency

3698
02:13:41,109 --> 02:13:40,239
are not necessarily conscious

3699
02:13:43,030 --> 02:13:41,119
and

3700
02:13:44,470 --> 02:13:43,040
while i still consider that to be

3701
02:13:47,270 --> 02:13:44,480
possible uh

3702
02:13:49,109 --> 02:13:47,280
i think it's also conceivable that

3703
02:13:51,270 --> 02:13:49,119
consciousness at some shape or form is

3704
02:13:53,030 --> 02:13:51,280
crucial to make sense of the world

3705
02:13:54,470 --> 02:13:53,040
basically perception is following

3706
02:13:55,750 --> 02:13:54,480
gradients and it's converging to a

3707
02:13:57,910 --> 02:13:55,760
certain state

3708
02:13:59,430 --> 02:13:57,920
and if you just follow a grain you don't

3709
02:14:00,709 --> 02:13:59,440
even need to have memory of where you're

3710
02:14:02,470 --> 02:14:00,719
coming from

3711
02:14:04,790 --> 02:14:02,480
but certain kinds of reality

3712
02:14:06,390 --> 02:14:04,800
interpretation require construction

3713
02:14:07,990 --> 02:14:06,400
and construction cannot follow a

3714
02:14:09,510 --> 02:14:08,000
gradient constructor needs to make

3715
02:14:11,510 --> 02:14:09,520
experiments and remember which

3716
02:14:13,589 --> 02:14:11,520
experiments worked and why and then

3717
02:14:15,430 --> 02:14:13,599
recall this and use the knowledge of

3718
02:14:18,390 --> 02:14:15,440
that so it needs to make index memories

3719
02:14:20,310 --> 02:14:18,400
of the operations that it performed and

3720
02:14:22,470 --> 02:14:20,320
it also requires some kind of central

3721
02:14:24,550 --> 02:14:22,480
organization to construct you need to

3722
02:14:26,790 --> 02:14:24,560
develop a central plan and then act on

3723
02:14:28,149 --> 02:14:26,800
that central plan so you have some kind

3724
02:14:30,390 --> 02:14:28,159
of top-down

3725
02:14:33,270 --> 02:14:30,400
localized imposition of a

3726
02:14:34,629 --> 02:14:33,280
low-dimensional function on the entirety

3727
02:14:37,109 --> 02:14:34,639
of perception

3728
02:14:38,950 --> 02:14:37,119
and it could be that this coincides

3729
02:14:40,629 --> 02:14:38,960
uh to the large degree with the

3730
02:14:42,390 --> 02:14:40,639
functionality of attentional

3731
02:14:46,550 --> 02:14:42,400
consciousness

3732
02:14:48,790 --> 02:14:46,560
of a government

3733
02:14:51,109 --> 02:14:48,800
and the government is an agent that is

3734
02:14:52,950 --> 02:14:51,119
imposing an offset on the

3735
02:14:54,629 --> 02:14:52,960
payout metrics of individual

3736
02:14:56,310 --> 02:14:54,639
participants in the system to make their

3737
02:14:58,790 --> 02:14:56,320
nash equilibrium compatible with the

3738
02:15:01,669 --> 02:14:58,800
common good so it's basically overcoming

3739
02:15:04,550 --> 02:15:01,679
local incentives in the system uh to

3740
02:15:06,470 --> 02:15:04,560
follow a larger plan so this government

3741
02:15:07,990 --> 02:15:06,480
itself is not creating the incentives

3742
02:15:09,589 --> 02:15:08,000
the incentives are created by game

3743
02:15:11,030 --> 02:15:09,599
theory physics and in underlying

3744
02:15:13,430 --> 02:15:11,040
dynamics of the system that is

3745
02:15:14,950 --> 02:15:13,440
facilitating for instance a society or

3746
02:15:16,870 --> 02:15:14,960
that is facilitating the function of

3747
02:15:18,870 --> 02:15:16,880
your brain you will still have to look

3748
02:15:20,229 --> 02:15:18,880
for food and social interaction in all

3749
02:15:21,830 --> 02:15:20,239
these things

3750
02:15:23,750 --> 02:15:21,840
consciousness is

3751
02:15:25,510 --> 02:15:23,760
channeling the motivation that we have

3752
02:15:28,390 --> 02:15:25,520
it's not creating it

3753
02:15:30,229 --> 02:15:28,400
it's creating a model of uh

3754
02:15:32,229 --> 02:15:30,239
where we are this is what we experience

3755
02:15:34,870 --> 02:15:32,239
as reality and the experience of model

3756
02:15:37,189 --> 02:15:34,880
of what we should be doing these are our

3757
02:15:38,709 --> 02:15:37,199
purposes but there uh the motive power

3758
02:15:41,030 --> 02:15:38,719
in these purposes comes from our

3759
02:15:42,629 --> 02:15:41,040
underlying motivation that is outside of

3760
02:15:44,470 --> 02:15:42,639
consciousness that is older than

3761
02:15:46,790 --> 02:15:44,480
consciousness itself

3762
02:15:49,270 --> 02:15:46,800
on the other hand uh we can see that

3763
02:15:51,030 --> 02:15:49,280
basically all the mammals are conscious

3764
02:15:52,790 --> 02:15:51,040
and this was also something that i was

3765
02:15:54,390 --> 02:15:52,800
not that acutely aware of before i

3766
02:15:57,030 --> 02:15:54,400
started looking

3767
02:15:58,629 --> 02:15:57,040
uh but it seems to be that uh

3768
02:16:01,350 --> 02:15:58,639
apparent in the interaction between

3769
02:16:03,189 --> 02:16:01,360
animals and also the animals and humans

3770
02:16:05,830 --> 02:16:03,199
that there is a mutual awareness of the

3771
02:16:09,030 --> 02:16:05,840
awareness of the other

3772
02:16:13,189 --> 02:16:10,950
thinking has changed in the last few

3773
02:16:15,750 --> 02:16:13,199
years and in part gradually in part more

3774
02:16:17,669 --> 02:16:15,760
radically the most radical one is

3775
02:16:19,430 --> 02:16:17,679
rna-based memory transfer the

3776
02:16:20,950 --> 02:16:19,440
possibility of that and the implications

3777
02:16:22,790 --> 02:16:20,960
for that which is just a very recent

3778
02:16:24,470 --> 02:16:22,800
idea that i have i don't know how long

3779
02:16:26,470 --> 02:16:24,480
i'll hold on to this and what will come

3780
02:16:28,470 --> 02:16:26,480
of this but it's something that

3781
02:16:31,109 --> 02:16:28,480
doesn't change my normative thinking in

3782
02:16:32,870 --> 02:16:31,119
a fundamental way and often is these

3783
02:16:34,790 --> 02:16:32,880
small changes to details of your

3784
02:16:38,070 --> 02:16:34,800
technical worldview that can have a big

3785
02:16:38,950 --> 02:16:38,080
change in your trajectory

3786
02:16:40,950 --> 02:16:38,960
john

3787
02:16:42,950 --> 02:16:40,960
it was very cool uh

3788
02:16:44,389 --> 02:16:42,960
the consciousness as a government i like

3789
02:16:46,549 --> 02:16:44,399
that idea it resonates with some of the

3790
02:16:47,669 --> 02:16:46,559
stuff i've been thinking about so maybe

3791
02:16:49,030 --> 02:16:47,679
we could talk about that at some point

3792
02:16:50,629 --> 02:16:49,040
in the future

3793
02:16:52,709 --> 02:16:50,639
um so for me

3794
02:16:55,750 --> 02:16:52,719
um

3795
02:16:56,709 --> 02:16:55,760
i'm like yoshi i mean i i often i'm

3796
02:16:58,309 --> 02:16:56,719
aware of these things only

3797
02:17:01,910 --> 02:16:58,319
retrospectively

3798
02:17:04,549 --> 02:17:01,920
not prospectively or introspectively um

3799
02:17:07,509 --> 02:17:04,559
so i guess retrospectively

3800
02:17:09,030 --> 02:17:07,519
i'm noticing that i'm really

3801
02:17:11,030 --> 02:17:09,040
i'm focusing on this issue that we

3802
02:17:12,790 --> 02:17:11,040
bumped up against a couple of times

3803
02:17:15,270 --> 02:17:12,800
which is normativity

3804
02:17:16,870 --> 02:17:15,280
and for a longest long time i was very

3805
02:17:18,309 --> 02:17:16,880
much

3806
02:17:20,150 --> 02:17:18,319
like sort of like the problem that

3807
02:17:21,830 --> 02:17:20,160
habermas talks about

3808
02:17:23,429 --> 02:17:21,840
i saw these domains the true the good

3809
02:17:25,030 --> 02:17:23,439
and the beautiful as separate from each

3810
02:17:26,870 --> 02:17:25,040
other and autonomous

3811
02:17:29,030 --> 02:17:26,880
um and

3812
02:17:30,230 --> 02:17:29,040
and then there was a hard fact value

3813
02:17:33,110 --> 02:17:30,240
distinction

3814
02:17:34,150 --> 02:17:33,120
uh things like that and i i'm now

3815
02:17:36,230 --> 02:17:34,160
um

3816
02:17:38,389 --> 02:17:36,240
i'm now really i'm really really

3817
02:17:39,830 --> 02:17:38,399
seriously questioning that i'm seeing

3818
02:17:42,950 --> 02:17:39,840
more and more good arguments for the

3819
02:17:44,629 --> 02:17:42,960
interpenetration of fact and value uh

3820
02:17:46,389 --> 02:17:44,639
and more and more arguments for the

3821
02:17:47,750 --> 02:17:46,399
interpenetration mutual affordance of

3822
02:17:48,950 --> 02:17:47,760
truth goodness

3823
02:17:53,030 --> 02:17:48,960
and beauty

3824
02:18:01,429 --> 02:17:53,910
that

3825
02:18:02,870 --> 02:18:01,439
other issues about the interconnection

3826
02:18:04,629 --> 02:18:02,880
of affect

3827
02:18:05,990 --> 02:18:04,639
and cognition

3828
02:18:07,509 --> 02:18:06,000
um

3829
02:18:09,509 --> 02:18:07,519
and that and like you show that leads

3830
02:18:11,669 --> 02:18:09,519
into more sort of technical things

3831
02:18:14,309 --> 02:18:11,679
i think there's ways of integrating

3832
02:18:16,950 --> 02:18:14,319
processes of relevance realization

3833
02:18:19,349 --> 02:18:16,960
with predictive processing models and i

3834
02:18:21,349 --> 02:18:19,359
just reviewed a paper

3835
02:18:22,950 --> 02:18:21,359
for frontiers i hope it gets published i

3836
02:18:24,629 --> 02:18:22,960
recommend it to get published where

3837
02:18:25,429 --> 02:18:24,639
people are exploring this convergence

3838
02:18:27,190 --> 02:18:25,439
now

3839
02:18:29,509 --> 02:18:27,200
in a really powerful way

3840
02:18:31,110 --> 02:18:29,519
uh one of my former students

3841
02:18:31,990 --> 02:18:31,120
mark miller does excellent work around

3842
02:18:35,190 --> 02:18:32,000
this

3843
02:18:37,509 --> 02:18:35,200
stuff

3844
02:18:39,349 --> 02:18:37,519
much more deeply so there's the

3845
02:18:41,349 --> 02:18:39,359
downstream stuff about

3846
02:18:43,589 --> 02:18:41,359
ways in which particular theories could

3847
02:18:45,429 --> 02:18:43,599
be integrated together and the upstream

3848
02:18:46,790 --> 02:18:45,439
stuff is

3849
02:18:49,030 --> 02:18:46,800
maybe

3850
02:18:51,589 --> 02:18:49,040
the the the enlightenment

3851
02:18:53,030 --> 02:18:51,599
i mean like the european enlightenment

3852
02:18:55,349 --> 02:18:53,040
as a period of time

3853
02:18:57,429 --> 02:18:55,359
the enlightenment idea of the autonomy

3854
02:18:58,790 --> 02:18:57,439
of the normativities is something we

3855
02:19:01,589 --> 02:18:58,800
should go back

3856
02:19:03,349 --> 02:19:01,599
uh to questioning a lot of the machinery

3857
02:19:05,110 --> 02:19:03,359
behind for example the is odd

3858
02:19:06,950 --> 02:19:05,120
distinction the fact value distinction

3859
02:19:09,509 --> 02:19:06,960
has actually been undermined by a lot of

3860
02:19:11,669 --> 02:19:09,519
arguments uh k-sphere has made a good

3861
02:19:13,349 --> 02:19:11,679
case of that and others

3862
02:19:15,750 --> 02:19:13,359
so i'm not i'm not sure where i am on

3863
02:19:18,309 --> 02:19:15,760
that i'm reading some very good books by

3864
02:19:19,750 --> 02:19:18,319
d stream schindler about that but i'm

3865
02:19:23,030 --> 02:19:19,760
really trying to

3866
02:19:26,549 --> 02:19:23,040
get clearer um

3867
02:19:27,750 --> 02:19:26,559
about the relationship uh between uh the

3868
02:19:30,230 --> 02:19:27,760
true the good and the beautiful to give

3869
02:19:31,990 --> 02:19:30,240
the classical name on it and then what

3870
02:19:34,070 --> 02:19:32,000
that means about

3871
02:19:35,030 --> 02:19:34,080
um

3872
02:19:36,870 --> 02:19:35,040
well

3873
02:19:38,070 --> 02:19:36,880
being wise how we best live our lives

3874
02:19:39,750 --> 02:19:38,080
because talking about how we best live

3875
02:19:41,910 --> 02:19:39,760
our lives is a normative judgment and

3876
02:19:43,190 --> 02:19:41,920
how do all those three if

3877
02:19:44,629 --> 02:19:43,200
they aren't

3878
02:19:46,549 --> 02:19:44,639
i mean part of the meaning crisis is

3879
02:19:48,549 --> 02:19:46,559
also the fragmentation of these

3880
02:19:50,389 --> 02:19:48,559
normativities and we put them into weird

3881
02:19:52,790 --> 02:19:50,399
competitions with each other that was

3882
02:19:54,790 --> 02:19:52,800
part of harbor moss's argument

3883
02:19:58,230 --> 02:19:54,800
and if it's possible that we are moving

3884
02:19:59,990 --> 02:19:58,240
beyond that model of the modularity

3885
02:20:01,510 --> 02:20:00,000
of the normativities but rather they're

3886
02:20:03,190 --> 02:20:01,520
i'm not saying their identity by the way

3887
02:20:05,030 --> 02:20:03,200
but their interpenetration and mutual

3888
02:20:06,790 --> 02:20:05,040
affordance into affordance

3889
02:20:07,590 --> 02:20:06,800
that i think has important implications

3890
02:20:09,990 --> 02:20:07,600
for

3891
02:20:11,270 --> 02:20:10,000
how people go about judging what it is

3892
02:20:13,750 --> 02:20:11,280
to lead

3893
02:20:15,910 --> 02:20:13,760
uh the best kind of life um so that's

3894
02:20:16,950 --> 02:20:15,920
where my thinking i i wasn't in that

3895
02:20:18,070 --> 02:20:16,960
position

3896
02:20:20,469 --> 02:20:18,080
um

3897
02:20:22,070 --> 02:20:20,479
i wasn't tackling those issues

3898
02:20:25,830 --> 02:20:22,080
i wasn't

3899
02:20:27,429 --> 02:20:25,840
about them three or four years ago so

3900
02:20:30,469 --> 02:20:27,439
that's

3901
02:20:32,550 --> 02:20:30,479
a significant change for me i had i had

3902
02:20:35,030 --> 02:20:32,560
a whole set of presuppositions

3903
02:20:37,190 --> 02:20:35,040
and and just don't make this heroic i

3904
02:20:39,349 --> 02:20:37,200
didn't sort of like oh by the way

3905
02:20:40,950 --> 02:20:39,359
by reading people like those

3906
02:20:43,190 --> 02:20:40,960
presuppositions have been slowly

3907
02:20:45,910 --> 02:20:43,200
archaeologically excavated

3908
02:20:48,230 --> 02:20:45,920
and i've come to be questioning them

3909
02:20:49,190 --> 02:20:48,240
in a way that i had not foreseen

3910
02:20:56,870 --> 02:20:49,200
and

3911
02:21:01,590 --> 02:20:59,990
okay so this question comes from

3912
02:21:03,270 --> 02:21:01,600
donald hoffman

3913
02:21:05,190 --> 02:21:03,280
he wants to know

3914
02:21:07,190 --> 02:21:05,200
is space-time an aspect of fundamental

3915
02:21:08,950 --> 02:21:07,200
reality

3916
02:21:10,230 --> 02:21:08,960
and also can there be a theory of

3917
02:21:12,309 --> 02:21:10,240
everything so you can tackle whichever

3918
02:21:14,710 --> 02:21:12,319
one you want and we'll start as usual

3919
02:21:17,750 --> 02:21:14,720
with yosha

3920
02:21:20,150 --> 02:21:17,760
no it's not the

3921
02:21:23,270 --> 02:21:20,160
obvious giveaway is that the collapse of

3922
02:21:26,630 --> 02:21:23,280
the waveform marks a point in your past

3923
02:21:29,750 --> 02:21:26,640
beyond which you cannot obtain a model

3924
02:21:32,389 --> 02:21:29,760
of events happening in time and space it

3925
02:21:34,710 --> 02:21:32,399
in a pinpointed fashion

3926
02:21:35,750 --> 02:21:34,720
that is one of the answers another one

3927
02:21:37,990 --> 02:21:35,760
is that

3928
02:21:39,830 --> 02:21:38,000
the traditional notion of time and space

3929
02:21:41,190 --> 02:21:39,840
requires a temporal and spatial

3930
02:21:45,349 --> 02:21:41,200
continuum

3931
02:21:47,670 --> 02:21:45,359
would require that you have basically an

3932
02:21:49,429 --> 02:21:47,680
infinite granularity

3933
02:21:51,270 --> 02:21:49,439
of things that are happening

3934
02:21:53,030 --> 02:21:51,280
which if you turn this into a

3935
02:21:54,790 --> 02:21:53,040
constructive language means that you

3936
02:21:57,110 --> 02:21:54,800
would have to process infinite amounts

3937
02:21:58,070 --> 02:21:57,120
of information in a finite number of

3938
02:21:59,830 --> 02:21:58,080
steps

3939
02:22:01,510 --> 02:21:59,840
and this leads in contradictions in the

3940
02:22:03,429 --> 02:22:01,520
definition of language which means we

3941
02:22:05,750 --> 02:22:03,439
cannot properly define these terms

3942
02:22:09,110 --> 02:22:05,760
without running into contradictions it's

3943
02:22:12,469 --> 02:22:09,120
also not necessary to do this so we can

3944
02:22:15,110 --> 02:22:12,479
create constructs that allow us to model

3945
02:22:17,830 --> 02:22:15,120
the function of the universe to a very

3946
02:22:19,750 --> 02:22:17,840
low level without going to continuity so

3947
02:22:23,349 --> 02:22:19,760
i don't think that space time itself

3948
02:22:25,110 --> 02:22:23,359
exists but it is an apparent thing that

3949
02:22:26,389 --> 02:22:25,120
happens at a certain level of course

3950
02:22:28,710 --> 02:22:26,399
graining

3951
02:22:30,309 --> 02:22:28,720
there and there are properties uh of

3952
02:22:32,550 --> 02:22:30,319
space-time this which means the

3953
02:22:35,190 --> 02:22:32,560
regularity and flatness and so on that

3954
02:22:38,389 --> 02:22:35,200
are probably required for uh having us

3955
02:22:41,670 --> 02:22:38,399
in it so basically for an evolution you

3956
02:22:44,150 --> 02:22:41,680
need to have a region of uh of the

3957
02:22:46,389 --> 02:22:44,160
universe where you can apply the things

3958
02:22:47,830 --> 02:22:46,399
that you learn in one corner uh in

3959
02:22:48,630 --> 02:22:47,840
another corner

3960
02:22:50,790 --> 02:22:48,640
and

3961
02:22:53,030 --> 02:22:50,800
your control actually works over time

3962
02:22:54,389 --> 02:22:53,040
spans and over space

3963
02:22:56,389 --> 02:22:54,399
so uh

3964
02:22:58,950 --> 02:22:56,399
you there is a reason why the universe

3965
02:23:01,190 --> 02:22:58,960
around us looks as if it was happening

3966
02:23:04,790 --> 02:23:01,200
in a nearly continuous space

3967
02:23:06,389 --> 02:23:04,800
and within nearly continuous time

3968
02:23:09,349 --> 02:23:06,399
john

3969
02:23:10,870 --> 02:23:09,359
um so i guess um

3970
02:23:13,670 --> 02:23:10,880
donald's question

3971
02:23:17,510 --> 02:23:15,510
i i guess i would want to talk to him

3972
02:23:19,990 --> 02:23:17,520
about a fundamental ontology do i think

3973
02:23:22,790 --> 02:23:20,000
that time and space are the ultimate

3974
02:23:24,870 --> 02:23:22,800
our ultimate reality uh no i i don't

3975
02:23:27,590 --> 02:23:24,880
think so i think i heard yoshi saying

3976
02:23:29,830 --> 02:23:27,600
something similar to that um

3977
02:23:32,150 --> 02:23:29,840
that doesn't by the way mean that i

3978
02:23:35,349 --> 02:23:32,160
think they're an illusion and i don't

3979
02:23:36,389 --> 02:23:35,359
think yosho was saying that either

3980
02:23:39,190 --> 02:23:36,399
i think

3981
02:23:41,030 --> 02:23:39,200
we have to be very careful about

3982
02:23:42,710 --> 02:23:41,040
when we're talking about these kinds of

3983
02:23:43,990 --> 02:23:42,720
levels

3984
02:23:44,950 --> 02:23:44,000
because

3985
02:23:46,950 --> 02:23:44,960
our

3986
02:23:48,710 --> 02:23:46,960
it's not the case and this is going to

3987
02:23:50,870 --> 02:23:48,720
go towards my answer the second thing

3988
02:23:52,630 --> 02:23:50,880
it's not the case that we can find all

3989
02:23:54,150 --> 02:23:52,640
the explanations we want at any

3990
02:23:55,510 --> 02:23:54,160
particular level

3991
02:23:56,230 --> 02:23:55,520
um

3992
02:23:58,070 --> 02:23:56,240
and

3993
02:23:59,990 --> 02:23:58,080
there's lots of arguments for this but

3994
02:24:02,870 --> 02:24:00,000
um i don't think there's one level from

3995
02:24:04,630 --> 02:24:02,880
which all the explanations uh can be

3996
02:24:06,550 --> 02:24:04,640
generated

3997
02:24:08,070 --> 02:24:06,560
and so in that sense

3998
02:24:09,750 --> 02:24:08,080
if what you mean by a theory of

3999
02:24:11,590 --> 02:24:09,760
everything is a theory in which all

4000
02:24:13,510 --> 02:24:11,600
explanations are reduced

4001
02:24:14,950 --> 02:24:13,520
to i don't know quantum mechanic

4002
02:24:16,870 --> 02:24:14,960
explanations and even if those are

4003
02:24:21,830 --> 02:24:16,880
explanations it's questionable

4004
02:24:21,840 --> 02:24:24,230
so

4005
02:24:27,750 --> 02:24:26,070
do i think time and space are ultimate

4006
02:24:28,790 --> 02:24:27,760
reality no

4007
02:24:29,830 --> 02:24:28,800
i don't think that means they're an

4008
02:24:33,190 --> 02:24:29,840
illusion

4009
02:24:34,070 --> 02:24:33,200
um and i think we should talk about

4010
02:24:35,750 --> 02:24:34,080
um

4011
02:24:40,830 --> 02:24:35,760
there being something like

4012
02:24:43,750 --> 02:24:40,840
a con uh uh a levels uh uh of of reality

4013
02:24:45,670 --> 02:24:43,760
um i think that

4014
02:24:47,750 --> 02:24:45,680
things not only emerge

4015
02:24:50,230 --> 02:24:47,760
out of the quantum base

4016
02:24:52,710 --> 02:24:50,240
um they're also constrained

4017
02:24:55,110 --> 02:24:52,720
uh by uh you know

4018
02:24:56,870 --> 02:24:55,120
law-like features of reality which

4019
02:24:58,389 --> 02:24:56,880
aren't properly talked about as being in

4020
02:24:59,910 --> 02:24:58,399
time and space

4021
02:25:01,030 --> 02:24:59,920
um

4022
02:25:03,030 --> 02:25:01,040
so like

4023
02:25:05,349 --> 02:25:03,040
i don't know what it would mean to say

4024
02:25:07,429 --> 02:25:05,359
like that two plus two equals four is

4025
02:25:08,309 --> 02:25:07,439
that temporal spatial that makes no

4026
02:25:10,870 --> 02:25:08,319
sense

4027
02:25:12,710 --> 02:25:10,880
um even something like equals mc squared

4028
02:25:13,830 --> 02:25:12,720
it doesn't make sense to talk about it

4029
02:25:16,469 --> 02:25:13,840
being

4030
02:25:18,309 --> 02:25:16,479
here or there or starting then or there

4031
02:25:20,469 --> 02:25:18,319
um and of course there's lots of other

4032
02:25:22,550 --> 02:25:20,479
entities like this so

4033
02:25:24,950 --> 02:25:22,560
we have emergence up out of something

4034
02:25:28,389 --> 02:25:24,960
like yoshi was talking about a

4035
02:25:29,910 --> 02:25:28,399
non-temporal spatial probability realm

4036
02:25:31,270 --> 02:25:29,920
and we also have higher order

4037
02:25:32,550 --> 02:25:31,280
constraints

4038
02:25:33,429 --> 02:25:32,560
um

4039
02:25:36,389 --> 02:25:33,439
that

4040
02:25:39,190 --> 02:25:36,399
also don't seem to be spatial temporal

4041
02:25:41,429 --> 02:25:39,200
and i think i think of time and space as

4042
02:25:43,349 --> 02:25:41,439
caught between that emergence and their

4043
02:25:44,309 --> 02:25:43,359
emanation i think part of what we're

4044
02:25:46,070 --> 02:25:44,319
doing

4045
02:25:48,710 --> 02:25:46,080
when we're playing with quantum

4046
02:25:50,710 --> 02:25:48,720
mechanics and relativity relativistic

4047
02:25:52,230 --> 02:25:50,720
stuff and trying to reconcile them not

4048
02:25:54,389 --> 02:25:52,240
this is not a perfect mapping but we're

4049
02:25:56,070 --> 02:25:54,399
trying to get clear about how those

4050
02:25:58,790 --> 02:25:56,080
levels uh

4051
02:25:59,670 --> 02:25:58,800
are appropriately real together

4052
02:26:01,349 --> 02:25:59,680
um

4053
02:26:03,270 --> 02:26:01,359
and so

4054
02:26:04,710 --> 02:26:03,280
that would be my answer to both

4055
02:26:06,389 --> 02:26:04,720
questions i don't think they're

4056
02:26:09,030 --> 02:26:06,399
ultimately real i don't think that says

4057
02:26:11,670 --> 02:26:09,040
they're an illusion um and i don't think

4058
02:26:13,910 --> 02:26:11,680
there is a theory of everything because

4059
02:26:16,469 --> 02:26:13,920
i don't think if by theory of everything

4060
02:26:18,630 --> 02:26:16,479
you mean i'm gonna pick one level and

4061
02:26:21,510 --> 02:26:18,640
that's the level at which i will be able

4062
02:26:24,710 --> 02:26:21,520
to explain everything i mean

4063
02:26:26,389 --> 02:26:24,720
yoshi for example uh and he's perfectly

4064
02:26:28,870 --> 02:26:26,399
legitimate for him doing this is not a

4065
02:26:31,190 --> 02:26:28,880
criticism he picks a computational level

4066
02:26:32,550 --> 02:26:31,200
right and right and that's the level

4067
02:26:35,190 --> 02:26:32,560
from which he works

4068
02:26:37,429 --> 02:26:35,200
uh but that doesn't mean that like

4069
02:26:38,230 --> 02:26:37,439
like he thinks uh

4070
02:26:41,030 --> 02:26:38,240
he

4071
02:26:42,630 --> 02:26:41,040
criticism which i take to be a

4072
02:26:45,510 --> 02:26:42,640
pseudo-criticism oh but the

4073
02:26:47,830 --> 02:26:45,520
computational is ultimately just right

4074
02:26:48,630 --> 02:26:47,840
uh thermodynamic or something like that

4075
02:26:49,750 --> 02:26:48,640
um

4076
02:26:51,429 --> 02:26:49,760
and

4077
02:26:53,349 --> 02:26:51,439
you know thermodynamics is a way to talk

4078
02:26:54,550 --> 02:26:53,359
about computation it's it's the other

4079
02:26:56,630 --> 02:26:54,560
way around

4080
02:26:59,590 --> 02:26:56,640
so and in some sense there uh you know

4081
02:27:02,150 --> 02:26:59,600
that has a glass panel maybe uh it's a

4082
02:27:05,349 --> 02:27:02,160
famous book that he has written in which

4083
02:27:07,910 --> 02:27:05,359
he describes uh somewhat metaphorically

4084
02:27:11,030 --> 02:27:07,920
a world in which uh people do science

4085
02:27:12,389 --> 02:27:11,040
and philosophy by playing a certain game

4086
02:27:14,710 --> 02:27:12,399
with glass beats

4087
02:27:16,790 --> 02:27:14,720
yes and this game is never completely

4088
02:27:19,590 --> 02:27:16,800
explained how it works right yeah yeah

4089
02:27:21,510 --> 02:27:19,600
so but you you are free to uh project

4090
02:27:23,590 --> 02:27:21,520
whatever you want and this so you can

4091
02:27:25,429 --> 02:27:23,600
imagine it something like an extremely

4092
02:27:27,429 --> 02:27:25,439
complicated abacus

4093
02:27:28,870 --> 02:27:27,439
in which you are shifting these glass

4094
02:27:31,110 --> 02:27:28,880
speeds around according to very

4095
02:27:33,030 --> 02:27:31,120
intricate rules and it allows you to

4096
02:27:35,429 --> 02:27:33,040
uh to reason about the world in some

4097
02:27:37,190 --> 02:27:35,439
kind of automatic fashion

4098
02:27:39,030 --> 02:27:37,200
and you're playing it against each other

4099
02:27:40,950 --> 02:27:39,040
but you are playing it according to

4100
02:27:43,190 --> 02:27:40,960
rules and the individual that is playing

4101
02:27:45,429 --> 02:27:43,200
it is not crucial for this game at all

4102
02:27:46,950 --> 02:27:45,439
it's the rules of the game itself

4103
02:27:48,630 --> 02:27:46,960
and so i think what happened with

4104
02:27:50,469 --> 02:27:48,640
computation is that we discovered a

4105
02:27:53,030 --> 02:27:50,479
glass pattern sphere

4106
02:27:55,429 --> 02:27:53,040
and we discovered the equivalence of all

4107
02:27:57,030 --> 02:27:55,439
glass pattern spheres that can possibly

4108
02:27:59,750 --> 02:27:57,040
be constructed

4109
02:28:01,990 --> 02:27:59,760
and whenever we found something new to

4110
02:28:04,230 --> 02:28:02,000
express ideas we also discovered for

4111
02:28:06,550 --> 02:28:04,240
this new thing to express ideas that it

4112
02:28:09,510 --> 02:28:06,560
can be mapped to a glassblown spear

4113
02:28:11,190 --> 02:28:09,520
and now there is this big question um

4114
02:28:12,630 --> 02:28:11,200
can there be a glass filled spiel of

4115
02:28:14,710 --> 02:28:12,640
everything which means could the

4116
02:28:16,389 --> 02:28:14,720
universe exist within a glass pattern

4117
02:28:18,630 --> 02:28:16,399
sphere

4118
02:28:20,630 --> 02:28:18,640
and from where i stand it seems to be

4119
02:28:24,070 --> 02:28:20,640
that the answer is yes but i don't know

4120
02:28:26,469 --> 02:28:24,080
this uh so i cannot know this before i

4121
02:28:28,150 --> 02:28:26,479
haven't succeeded in doing so but in

4122
02:28:30,150 --> 02:28:28,160
some sense that's the game that i'm

4123
02:28:32,469 --> 02:28:30,160
playing here

4124
02:28:34,630 --> 02:28:32,479
it's a good book i love herman hessa i

4125
02:28:39,349 --> 02:28:34,640
recommend the book um

4126
02:28:40,550 --> 02:28:39,359
um yeah i guess i i tend to uh

4127
02:28:42,150 --> 02:28:40,560
i tend to be

4128
02:28:43,750 --> 02:28:42,160
a little bit more

4129
02:28:46,630 --> 02:28:43,760
pragmatic in the philosophical sense

4130
02:28:48,710 --> 02:28:46,640
about uh scientific explanations uh

4131
02:28:50,870 --> 02:28:48,720
meant that they're always bound to

4132
02:28:51,910 --> 02:28:50,880
my interests my concerns the concerns of

4133
02:28:53,670 --> 02:28:51,920
my group

4134
02:28:56,469 --> 02:28:53,680
and again you've said things that are

4135
02:28:58,469 --> 02:28:56,479
not inconsistent with that um

4136
02:28:59,429 --> 02:28:58,479
so

4137
02:29:01,510 --> 02:28:59,439
well i don't know if there's anything

4138
02:29:03,670 --> 02:29:01,520
more to say i mean that could launch us

4139
02:29:05,110 --> 02:29:03,680
into another long discussion perhaps

4140
02:29:06,950 --> 02:29:05,120
but i think i've tried to answer the

4141
02:29:08,870 --> 02:29:06,960
question um

4142
02:29:11,030 --> 02:29:08,880
i don't think they're ultimately real i

4143
02:29:11,990 --> 02:29:11,040
think they are intermediate literally

4144
02:29:15,110 --> 02:29:12,000
real

4145
02:29:17,510 --> 02:29:15,120
right in some ways um as i've tried to

4146
02:29:19,110 --> 02:29:17,520
say um that doesn't mean they're an

4147
02:29:20,630 --> 02:29:19,120
illusion

4148
02:29:24,790 --> 02:29:20,640
and i

4149
02:29:26,309 --> 02:29:24,800
i i'm suspicious of uh grand reductive

4150
02:29:28,550 --> 02:29:26,319
explanations

4151
02:29:30,309 --> 02:29:28,560
maybe more suspicious than yeshua uh

4152
02:29:31,270 --> 02:29:30,319
because i've watched them fail in the

4153
02:29:37,830 --> 02:29:31,280
history

4154
02:29:39,270 --> 02:29:37,840
i think more

4155
02:29:40,710 --> 02:29:39,280
and it's unclear whether or not what

4156
02:29:42,710 --> 02:29:40,720
yoshi's

4157
02:29:44,469 --> 02:29:42,720
proposing does a reduction or does what

4158
02:29:45,349 --> 02:29:44,479
i'm now going to talk about what i see

4159
02:29:48,070 --> 02:29:45,359
now

4160
02:29:50,150 --> 02:29:48,080
um is kind of reciprocal reciprocal

4161
02:29:51,670 --> 02:29:50,160
reconstruction between these various

4162
02:29:54,150 --> 02:29:51,680
levels of discourse

4163
02:29:55,750 --> 02:29:54,160
i see the ai people

4164
02:29:57,990 --> 02:29:55,760
changing the minds of the

4165
02:29:59,750 --> 02:29:58,000
neuroscientists and vice versa

4166
02:30:01,910 --> 02:29:59,760
and the ai people changing the minds of

4167
02:30:04,230 --> 02:30:01,920
the psychologists and vice versa it's

4168
02:30:07,349 --> 02:30:04,240
not that anyone anybody one person

4169
02:30:08,710 --> 02:30:07,359
claims uh to have this um and i don't

4170
02:30:11,990 --> 02:30:08,720
know if the glass speed game would be a

4171
02:30:15,270 --> 02:30:12,000
claim of reduction to itself or a game

4172
02:30:16,710 --> 02:30:15,280
in which we can really facilitate uh the

4173
02:30:18,630 --> 02:30:16,720
most optimal kind of reciprocal

4174
02:30:21,110 --> 02:30:18,640
reconstruction between our various

4175
02:30:23,110 --> 02:30:21,120
ontologies and strategies of measuring

4176
02:30:25,270 --> 02:30:23,120
and explaining the world

4177
02:30:26,950 --> 02:30:25,280
so that's how i would answer that sad

4178
02:30:29,270 --> 02:30:26,960
face has a question can we get a

4179
02:30:32,630 --> 02:30:29,280
discussion on their perspectives of

4180
02:30:33,990 --> 02:30:32,640
on the chinese room thought experiment

4181
02:30:35,990 --> 02:30:34,000
so should i go first this time because

4182
02:30:38,150 --> 02:30:36,000
yeah sure please

4183
02:30:39,590 --> 02:30:38,160
um

4184
02:30:41,030 --> 02:30:39,600
so

4185
02:30:42,309 --> 02:30:41,040
the chinese room first of all i don't

4186
02:30:44,150 --> 02:30:42,319
think it's an argument i think it's a

4187
02:30:46,710 --> 02:30:44,160
demonstration of arguments already that

4188
02:30:48,630 --> 02:30:46,720
are already prefigured in descartes but

4189
02:30:49,510 --> 02:30:48,640
nevertheless i think searle deserves

4190
02:30:51,110 --> 02:30:49,520
credit

4191
02:30:52,389 --> 02:30:51,120
um

4192
02:30:55,429 --> 02:30:52,399
i think he's right about sort of the

4193
02:30:58,710 --> 02:30:55,439
standard system and room reply

4194
02:31:01,910 --> 02:30:58,720
uh sorry this the sort of system and

4195
02:31:03,110 --> 02:31:01,920
robot reply that's what i meant to say

4196
02:31:05,030 --> 02:31:03,120
um

4197
02:31:06,469 --> 02:31:05,040
i don't think he has an answer to the

4198
02:31:07,910 --> 02:31:06,479
virtual

4199
02:31:09,990 --> 02:31:07,920
machine reply

4200
02:31:11,670 --> 02:31:10,000
um because he didn't foresee it

4201
02:31:15,349 --> 02:31:11,680
but i think he would respond to the

4202
02:31:18,150 --> 02:31:15,359
virtual machine reply uh by invoking his

4203
02:31:19,750 --> 02:31:18,160
argument about multiple realizability

4204
02:31:22,790 --> 02:31:19,760
and that multiple realizability

4205
02:31:25,030 --> 02:31:22,800
indicates that an entity an ai's

4206
02:31:27,030 --> 02:31:25,040
presupposes multiple realizability

4207
02:31:30,389 --> 02:31:27,040
ai is not in

4208
02:31:32,550 --> 02:31:30,399
intrinsically exist

4209
02:31:34,550 --> 02:31:32,560
it's only attributed because of multiple

4210
02:31:37,030 --> 02:31:34,560
realizability i think

4211
02:31:38,469 --> 02:31:37,040
the response to that is

4212
02:31:40,950 --> 02:31:38,479
i don't think the distinction between

4213
02:31:42,309 --> 02:31:40,960
attributed and intrinsic as as clean as

4214
02:31:44,389 --> 02:31:42,319
he makes it for example is the

4215
02:31:47,190 --> 02:31:44,399
distinction itself intrinsic or

4216
02:31:50,230 --> 02:31:47,200
attributed that's a very deep problem

4217
02:31:51,990 --> 02:31:50,240
and secondly uh we do think that there

4218
02:31:54,389 --> 02:31:52,000
are things that are multiply realizable

4219
02:31:56,790 --> 02:31:54,399
that nevertheless intrinsically exist

4220
02:31:59,190 --> 02:31:56,800
uh combustion erosion evolution are

4221
02:32:01,990 --> 02:31:59,200
clear examples so i don't think his

4222
02:32:05,270 --> 02:32:02,000
intuitive criteria of the for splitting

4223
02:32:08,870 --> 02:32:05,280
intrinsic and attributed is sufficient i

4224
02:32:11,910 --> 02:32:08,880
think we um have to look at other

4225
02:32:14,630 --> 02:32:11,920
accounts of how we think things have a

4226
02:32:15,910 --> 02:32:14,640
kind of independent existence from us

4227
02:32:18,150 --> 02:32:15,920
and so

4228
02:32:20,309 --> 02:32:18,160
the degree to which things are

4229
02:32:22,950 --> 02:32:20,319
we think things are self-organizing in

4230
02:32:25,190 --> 02:32:22,960
some fashion guarantees that a kind of

4231
02:32:26,070 --> 02:32:25,200
autonomous existence

4232
02:32:27,830 --> 02:32:26,080
that

4233
02:32:31,190 --> 02:32:27,840
cyril needs to acknowledge and because

4234
02:32:32,469 --> 02:32:31,200
he because he invokes biology and other

4235
02:32:33,590 --> 02:32:32,479
things i think he is ultimately

4236
02:32:35,670 --> 02:32:33,600
committed

4237
02:32:37,590 --> 02:32:35,680
to what i just said so i think the

4238
02:32:39,590 --> 02:32:37,600
chinese room argument doesn't settle

4239
02:32:43,030 --> 02:32:39,600
anything in and of itself i think you

4240
02:32:45,510 --> 02:32:43,040
get shifted to the virtual machine reply

4241
02:32:47,910 --> 02:32:45,520
the virtual machining reply would get

4242
02:32:50,070 --> 02:32:47,920
addressed by searle's arguments

4243
02:32:52,070 --> 02:32:50,080
about multiple realizability and things

4244
02:32:53,590 --> 02:32:52,080
being intrinsic or attributed and i

4245
02:32:56,150 --> 02:32:53,600
think that's where the crux of the

4246
02:32:57,110 --> 02:32:56,160
argument is and i think

4247
02:32:58,230 --> 02:32:57,120
we

4248
02:33:00,070 --> 02:32:58,240
don't

4249
02:33:00,950 --> 02:33:00,080
always think

4250
02:33:02,230 --> 02:33:00,960
that

4251
02:33:04,150 --> 02:33:02,240
things

4252
02:33:06,309 --> 02:33:04,160
that are multiply realizable are

4253
02:33:08,469 --> 02:33:06,319
necessarily attributed and i gave you

4254
02:33:10,230 --> 02:33:08,479
some instances and i think that's where

4255
02:33:12,389 --> 02:33:10,240
the argument bottoms out and that's

4256
02:33:14,790 --> 02:33:12,399
would be my reply to the chinese

4257
02:33:17,190 --> 02:33:14,800
argument it seems to me that there are

4258
02:33:20,150 --> 02:33:17,200
things that are multiply realizable but

4259
02:33:22,550 --> 02:33:20,160
we nevertheless take to be intrinsic uh

4260
02:33:25,110 --> 02:33:22,560
that they exist intrinsically not just

4261
02:33:27,429 --> 02:33:25,120
by our attribute money

4262
02:33:29,510 --> 02:33:27,439
only exists by attribution we all agree

4263
02:33:31,510 --> 02:33:29,520
it exists and exists and if we stop

4264
02:33:33,349 --> 02:33:31,520
agreeing it doesn't exist um i don't

4265
02:33:35,270 --> 02:33:33,359
think combustion erosion or revolution

4266
02:33:36,070 --> 02:33:35,280
which are multiply realizable

4267
02:33:38,710 --> 02:33:36,080
um

4268
02:33:42,070 --> 02:33:38,720
exist in that way and so i think his

4269
02:33:45,030 --> 02:33:42,080
clean dichotomy breaks down um

4270
02:33:47,030 --> 02:33:45,040
and so that would be my my answer um i

4271
02:33:49,190 --> 02:33:47,040
think it's important work i i teach this

4272
02:33:50,790 --> 02:33:49,200
i teach surah i teach the chinese rule

4273
02:33:52,710 --> 02:33:50,800
argument but i teach this whole series

4274
02:33:55,910 --> 02:33:52,720
of arguments and it gets down to some

4275
02:33:57,190 --> 02:33:55,920
very fundamental issues that cyril

4276
02:33:59,270 --> 02:33:57,200
certainly

4277
02:34:00,790 --> 02:33:59,280
argument and his intuitions about how

4278
02:34:02,469 --> 02:34:00,800
you distinguish the intrinsic from the

4279
02:34:04,550 --> 02:34:02,479
attributed

4280
02:34:06,389 --> 02:34:04,560
that's not well argued

4281
02:34:07,750 --> 02:34:06,399
that and he does and he doesn't for

4282
02:34:09,510 --> 02:34:07,760
example deal with the cases i just

4283
02:34:11,349 --> 02:34:09,520
proposed to you of things that are

4284
02:34:14,550 --> 02:34:11,359
clearly multiply realizable and

4285
02:34:16,389 --> 02:34:14,560
intrinsically exist so his idea that if

4286
02:34:17,590 --> 02:34:16,399
it's multiply realizable it must be

4287
02:34:19,750 --> 02:34:17,600
attributed

4288
02:34:21,590 --> 02:34:19,760
seems to be falsifiable

4289
02:34:25,429 --> 02:34:21,600
and i think that there that's where the

4290
02:34:25,439 --> 02:34:28,150
yoshi

4291
02:34:33,110 --> 02:34:31,190
the multiple realizability is a stent

4292
02:34:35,429 --> 02:34:33,120
and for something deeper it has to do

4293
02:34:37,750 --> 02:34:35,439
with the fact that causal structure can

4294
02:34:39,590 --> 02:34:37,760
be insulated from the substrate

4295
02:34:41,429 --> 02:34:39,600
and to insulate causal structure from

4296
02:34:43,670 --> 02:34:41,439
the substrate means that you now have a

4297
02:34:45,750 --> 02:34:43,680
causal description that happens

4298
02:34:47,670 --> 02:34:45,760
independently of the underlying physics

4299
02:34:49,349 --> 02:34:47,680
for instance the stock market could work

4300
02:34:50,950 --> 02:34:49,359
in different universes

4301
02:34:52,870 --> 02:34:50,960
the stock market in some sense is an

4302
02:34:54,790 --> 02:34:52,880
independent course attraction as soon as

4303
02:34:57,190 --> 02:34:54,800
you have touring machines that can be

4304
02:34:58,870 --> 02:34:57,200
built in many kinds of universes you can

4305
02:35:00,790 --> 02:34:58,880
build causal structure on top of these

4306
02:35:03,270 --> 02:35:00,800
turing machines that is arbitrary right

4307
02:35:05,190 --> 02:35:03,280
you could build a computer game in other

4308
02:35:07,510 --> 02:35:05,200
universes as long as you can build a

4309
02:35:09,429 --> 02:35:07,520
computer in these other universes and

4310
02:35:13,510 --> 02:35:09,439
this computer game can have arbitrary

4311
02:35:16,550 --> 02:35:13,520
physics like a computer game can have

4312
02:35:18,630 --> 02:35:16,560
and and in the sense i think that money

4313
02:35:20,950 --> 02:35:18,640
would also exist if we stop believing in

4314
02:35:22,950 --> 02:35:20,960
it as long as we have functional

4315
02:35:25,190 --> 02:35:22,960
mechanisms that implement the response

4316
02:35:28,070 --> 02:35:25,200
to money so as long as you have banks

4317
02:35:30,630 --> 02:35:28,080
implemented in software and atms and

4318
02:35:32,550 --> 02:35:30,640
stock markets and amazon is accepting

4319
02:35:33,910 --> 02:35:32,560
money and so on and so on

4320
02:35:35,830 --> 02:35:33,920
right the money would retain its

4321
02:35:37,429 --> 02:35:35,840
functional character independent of the

4322
02:35:39,910 --> 02:35:37,439
beliefs of people

4323
02:35:42,710 --> 02:35:39,920
and so we have updated in a sense

4324
02:35:45,590 --> 02:35:42,720
because we uh no longer just see money

4325
02:35:47,270 --> 02:35:45,600
as an agreement between people but uh

4326
02:35:49,190 --> 02:35:47,280
this agreement between people has been

4327
02:35:50,389 --> 02:35:49,200
extended into machinery that we have

4328
02:35:52,230 --> 02:35:50,399
built in the world that works

4329
02:35:52,950 --> 02:35:52,240
independently of the beliefs that people

4330
02:35:54,389 --> 02:35:52,960
have

4331
02:35:56,230 --> 02:35:54,399
and this leads us to the question of

4332
02:35:58,790 --> 02:35:56,240
what is software

4333
02:36:00,950 --> 02:35:58,800
and software is not a thing

4334
02:36:03,270 --> 02:36:00,960
right software is something else in

4335
02:36:05,190 --> 02:36:03,280
which sense does software exist

4336
02:36:07,030 --> 02:36:05,200
and the best answer that i have so far

4337
02:36:09,190 --> 02:36:07,040
discovered is that software is a

4338
02:36:12,469 --> 02:36:09,200
physical law

4339
02:36:13,910 --> 02:36:12,479
instance arrange matter in this

4340
02:36:16,550 --> 02:36:13,920
particular way

4341
02:36:18,630 --> 02:36:16,560
the following thing will happen

4342
02:36:20,309 --> 02:36:18,640
and this is true for software right so

4343
02:36:22,389 --> 02:36:20,319
no matter where you are in the universe

4344
02:36:23,910 --> 02:36:22,399
in which universe you are if you

4345
02:36:25,990 --> 02:36:23,920
produce the following functional

4346
02:36:27,670 --> 02:36:26,000
arrangement of things the following

4347
02:36:30,230 --> 02:36:27,680
thing will happen this is what software

4348
02:36:32,950 --> 02:36:30,240
is about so the programmer in some sense

4349
02:36:35,750 --> 02:36:32,960
is discovering by constructing certain

4350
02:36:37,670 --> 02:36:35,760
very peculiar circumstances a very

4351
02:36:38,389 --> 02:36:37,680
specific physical law

4352
02:36:39,670 --> 02:36:38,399
and

4353
02:36:40,710 --> 02:36:39,680
i just want to interrupt that's really

4354
02:36:44,070 --> 02:36:40,720
cool

4355
02:36:45,349 --> 02:36:44,080
idea

4356
02:36:46,469 --> 02:36:45,359
i want to make sure i'm sorry for it i

4357
02:36:48,150 --> 02:36:46,479
want to make sure i'm following you

4358
02:36:49,830 --> 02:36:48,160
you're proposing that software has the

4359
02:36:52,230 --> 02:36:49,840
same kind of ontological status as

4360
02:36:55,030 --> 02:36:52,240
physical laws exactly yes wow that's

4361
02:36:56,469 --> 02:36:55,040
really really cool i hadn't that's cool

4362
02:36:59,190 --> 02:36:56,479
keep going please i just wanted to yeah

4363
02:37:01,110 --> 02:36:59,200
that's very cool yeah i thought when i

4364
02:37:03,190 --> 02:37:01,120
stumbled on this insight that it was a

4365
02:37:05,110 --> 02:37:03,200
good insight that basically started

4366
02:37:07,110 --> 02:37:05,120
to make sense right because it's an

4367
02:37:09,910 --> 02:37:07,120
apparent pattern in the interaction of

4368
02:37:14,309 --> 02:37:12,150
that's very good i like that that's very

4369
02:37:16,630 --> 02:37:14,319
good that's very good

4370
02:37:18,309 --> 02:37:16,640
so uh this also means uh because i think

4371
02:37:19,830 --> 02:37:18,319
that mental states are best understood

4372
02:37:21,830 --> 02:37:19,840
as software states

4373
02:37:23,990 --> 02:37:21,840
that the ontological status of our

4374
02:37:26,870 --> 02:37:24,000
mental states is different from the

4375
02:37:29,349 --> 02:37:26,880
ontological states of uh the one that we

4376
02:37:31,670 --> 02:37:29,359
attribute to physical things

4377
02:37:34,230 --> 02:37:31,680
so this has to do with the notion of

4378
02:37:36,230 --> 02:37:34,240
identity of a mental state

4379
02:37:38,230 --> 02:37:36,240
that is similar to the identity of a

4380
02:37:40,630 --> 02:37:38,240
physical law which means it's not this

4381
02:37:43,030 --> 02:37:40,640
point wise identity yeah yeah it's a

4382
02:37:46,230 --> 02:37:43,040
functional identity yeah yeah and uh now

4383
02:37:48,630 --> 02:37:46,240
let's go back to uh sir the original

4384
02:37:51,030 --> 02:37:48,640
chinese room argument is very simplistic

4385
02:37:51,910 --> 02:37:51,040
in a sense like it's a children's story

4386
02:37:53,750 --> 02:37:51,920
myth

4387
02:37:55,910 --> 02:37:53,760
that searle himself doesn't believe in

4388
02:37:58,230 --> 02:37:55,920
and it's an argument that is by absurd

4389
02:38:00,790 --> 02:37:58,240
when he repeats it today made in bad

4390
02:38:02,950 --> 02:38:00,800
faith the azir is affiliated with this

4391
02:38:05,590 --> 02:38:02,960
his actual contributions to philosophy

4392
02:38:07,349 --> 02:38:05,600
have been largely an extension of

4393
02:38:09,830 --> 02:38:07,359
austin's speech act theory that are

4394
02:38:11,910 --> 02:38:09,840
boring and wouldn't give praise to fame

4395
02:38:13,590 --> 02:38:11,920
but the

4396
02:38:15,429 --> 02:38:13,600
chinese womb is somebody that everybody

4397
02:38:17,510 --> 02:38:15,439
understands because it interfaces with

4398
02:38:18,630 --> 02:38:17,520
certain intuitions and it's an intuition

4399
02:38:20,550 --> 02:38:18,640
pump

4400
02:38:22,309 --> 02:38:20,560
and if you disassemble these intuitions

4401
02:38:24,950 --> 02:38:22,319
and try to make them more distinct and

4402
02:38:27,110 --> 02:38:24,960
more clear then many of them fall apart

4403
02:38:29,990 --> 02:38:27,120
and searle is aware because he's not

4404
02:38:31,510 --> 02:38:30,000
stupid he's a very smart individual of

4405
02:38:33,429 --> 02:38:31,520
many of the ways in which they fall

4406
02:38:35,110 --> 02:38:33,439
apart but he is still repeating the

4407
02:38:36,950 --> 02:38:35,120
original chinese room argument because

4408
02:38:37,990 --> 02:38:36,960
it's his brand

4409
02:38:39,190 --> 02:38:38,000
so

4410
02:38:41,750 --> 02:38:39,200
it's not because he believes in it and

4411
02:38:43,110 --> 02:38:41,760
if you actually read his uh this work he

4412
02:38:44,950 --> 02:38:43,120
is aware of many of the counter

4413
02:38:47,750 --> 02:38:44,960
arguments and he knows that he needs to

4414
02:38:49,349 --> 02:38:47,760
go into a few levels of complications to

4415
02:38:51,990 --> 02:38:49,359
have an interesting argument and to have

4416
02:38:54,230 --> 02:38:52,000
an interesting case that he's making so

4417
02:38:56,550 --> 02:38:54,240
the uh superficial level of the chinese

4418
02:38:58,389 --> 02:38:56,560
room argument is maybe not that

4419
02:39:00,550 --> 02:38:58,399
interesting a slate extension that is

4420
02:39:03,030 --> 02:39:00,560
more interesting is the chinese brain

4421
02:39:05,990 --> 02:39:03,040
argument that so is also aware of and

4422
02:39:07,510 --> 02:39:06,000
the chinese brain argument suggests that

4423
02:39:09,429 --> 02:39:07,520
instead of having this library with

4424
02:39:11,270 --> 02:39:09,439
books in it in which you execute the

4425
02:39:13,590 --> 02:39:11,280
algorithm we use a different

4426
02:39:17,110 --> 02:39:13,600
implementation of that whole thing and

4427
02:39:20,150 --> 02:39:17,120
instead what we do is we take uh

4428
02:39:22,630 --> 02:39:20,160
a mechanization of the neuron itself

4429
02:39:24,550 --> 02:39:22,640
so if we accept that what the brain is

4430
02:39:26,230 --> 02:39:24,560
doing is facilitated by the interaction

4431
02:39:28,150 --> 02:39:26,240
of neurons

4432
02:39:29,830 --> 02:39:28,160
their urine has to follow certain rules

4433
02:39:31,590 --> 02:39:29,840
in order to make that happen

4434
02:39:33,830 --> 02:39:31,600
and maybe we can spell out these rules

4435
02:39:37,750 --> 02:39:33,840
in our thought experiment and then we

4436
02:39:39,750 --> 02:39:37,760
assign a chinese person to a neuron

4437
02:39:41,910 --> 02:39:39,760
and maybe we need a few more we maybe

4438
02:39:44,150 --> 02:39:41,920
need 86 billion chinese people in

4439
02:39:45,670 --> 02:39:44,160
instead of 1.4 but

4440
02:39:48,230 --> 02:39:45,680
it's a thought experiment so not a

4441
02:39:50,230 --> 02:39:48,240
problem at all and now instead of

4442
02:39:51,990 --> 02:39:50,240
neurons we have chinese which follow

4443
02:39:53,270 --> 02:39:52,000
these words or we could use machines

4444
02:39:54,790 --> 02:39:53,280
instead of the chinese that are

4445
02:39:56,230 --> 02:39:54,800
following these rules

4446
02:39:57,830 --> 02:39:56,240
and so

4447
02:40:00,070 --> 02:39:57,840
i think that this matching between a

4448
02:40:02,469 --> 02:40:00,080
neuron and a chinese person is not

4449
02:40:03,910 --> 02:40:02,479
completely absurd on the face of it of

4450
02:40:05,110 --> 02:40:03,920
course it would be much larger and we

4451
02:40:07,670 --> 02:40:05,120
blow it up

4452
02:40:10,230 --> 02:40:07,680
and now sir would say of course the

4453
02:40:12,469 --> 02:40:10,240
chinese brain doesn't have the necessary

4454
02:40:14,309 --> 02:40:12,479
and sufficient conditions to produce a

4455
02:40:16,550 --> 02:40:14,319
conscious mind and then

4456
02:40:18,630 --> 02:40:16,560
access to meaning so it doesn't change

4457
02:40:20,630 --> 02:40:18,640
anything but the chinese room or the

4458
02:40:22,630 --> 02:40:20,640
chinese brain is performing these

4459
02:40:24,070 --> 02:40:22,640
operations the chinese brain is still

4460
02:40:26,309 --> 02:40:24,080
not able to

4461
02:40:27,910 --> 02:40:26,319
speak chinese because the individual

4462
02:40:30,150 --> 02:40:27,920
identities of the chinese people and

4463
02:40:31,830 --> 02:40:30,160
their knowledge does not interfere in

4464
02:40:34,950 --> 02:40:31,840
any way with their emulation of the

4465
02:40:37,190 --> 02:40:34,960
functionality of individual neurons so

4466
02:40:38,870 --> 02:40:37,200
now if we have established this case

4467
02:40:40,630 --> 02:40:38,880
where sir would say the chinese brain is

4468
02:40:43,190 --> 02:40:40,640
not conscious but your brain is

4469
02:40:45,510 --> 02:40:43,200
conscious let's see where is the

4470
02:40:48,950 --> 02:40:45,520
boundary between those two systems so

4471
02:40:50,630 --> 02:40:48,960
let's take your brain blow it up until a

4472
02:40:52,710 --> 02:40:50,640
person and the new one have roughly the

4473
02:40:54,710 --> 02:40:52,720
same size so change the time so it

4474
02:40:56,389 --> 02:40:54,720
doesn't matter how much the chinese need

4475
02:40:58,230 --> 02:40:56,399
to talk to each other to make the new

4476
02:41:00,870 --> 02:40:58,240
world functionality happening and set

4477
02:41:02,309 --> 02:41:00,880
messages back and forth so let's keep

4478
02:41:04,710 --> 02:41:02,319
this an identity and now we take

4479
02:41:06,870 --> 02:41:04,720
basically take your neurons and uh cell

4480
02:41:09,270 --> 02:41:06,880
accepts that neurons are facilitating

4481
02:41:11,190 --> 02:41:09,280
mental activity he is not a

4482
02:41:12,870 --> 02:41:11,200
mysteriousness or so he doesn't know how

4483
02:41:14,870 --> 02:41:12,880
the brain does it but he agrees that the

4484
02:41:17,349 --> 02:41:14,880
brain is doing it he's a physicalist in

4485
02:41:19,670 --> 02:41:17,359
a sense so now uh

4486
02:41:21,750 --> 02:41:19,680
let's replace step by step the neurons

4487
02:41:23,270 --> 02:41:21,760
by some other machinery for instance

4488
02:41:25,110 --> 02:41:23,280
chinese people or machines that have

4489
02:41:27,670 --> 02:41:25,120
neural lag functionality

4490
02:41:29,429 --> 02:41:27,680
and so at some point says this loses the

4491
02:41:31,429 --> 02:41:29,439
ability to be conscious so the

4492
02:41:32,550 --> 02:41:31,439
consciousness is drag drowning out of

4493
02:41:34,950 --> 02:41:32,560
the system

4494
02:41:37,510 --> 02:41:34,960
by this replacement process

4495
02:41:38,510 --> 02:41:37,520
and what this means is that swirl has a

4496
02:41:41,190 --> 02:41:38,520
strong

4497
02:41:43,270 --> 02:41:41,200
anti-functionalist position he basically

4498
02:41:45,510 --> 02:41:43,280
says that the function of the individual

4499
02:41:47,030 --> 02:41:45,520
parts is not producing the essential

4500
02:41:49,110 --> 02:41:47,040
behavior they are somehow in essence

4501
02:41:50,950 --> 02:41:49,120
he's an essentialist

4502
02:41:52,070 --> 02:41:50,960
and i don't know how to get essentialism

4503
02:41:54,469 --> 02:41:52,080
to work

4504
02:41:56,710 --> 02:41:54,479
because nobody has ever seen an essence

4505
02:41:58,389 --> 02:41:56,720
right we can talk about an essence but

4506
02:42:00,550 --> 02:41:58,399
it's epi phenomena

4507
02:42:03,030 --> 02:42:00,560
and the problem with epi phenomenalism

4508
02:42:04,630 --> 02:42:03,040
is is the following epiphanology is if

4509
02:42:07,110 --> 02:42:04,640
we go back to our dualism from the

4510
02:42:09,190 --> 02:42:07,120
beginning of our conversation today

4511
02:42:10,950 --> 02:42:09,200
it's the idea that there is maybe a read

4512
02:42:12,630 --> 02:42:10,960
access from the mind

4513
02:42:14,469 --> 02:42:12,640
where the mind is reading physics but no

4514
02:42:16,550 --> 02:42:14,479
right access from the mind into physics

4515
02:42:17,750 --> 02:42:16,560
so it's not violating the causal closure

4516
02:42:19,270 --> 02:42:17,760
of physics

4517
02:42:21,670 --> 02:42:19,280
but there is a problem with epi

4518
02:42:23,750 --> 02:42:21,680
phenomenalism and that is

4519
02:42:25,349 --> 02:42:23,760
uh the phenomenal experience that you

4520
02:42:27,110 --> 02:42:25,359
don't think you can explain in the

4521
02:42:28,389 --> 02:42:27,120
physical mechanism is not driving

4522
02:42:31,990 --> 02:42:28,399
anything of what you are saying

4523
02:42:34,630 --> 02:42:32,000
including your utterances of beliefs

4524
02:42:37,030 --> 02:42:34,640
so when an epiphany says but i feel and

4525
02:42:39,349 --> 02:42:37,040
this cannot be explained by physics this

4526
02:42:41,190 --> 02:42:39,359
is caused by physics right because the

4527
02:42:42,790 --> 02:42:41,200
epithelialist has to move their mouse or

4528
02:42:45,110 --> 02:42:42,800
move their fingers to

4529
02:42:47,030 --> 02:42:45,120
express the statement and all these

4530
02:42:48,550 --> 02:42:47,040
movements are caused by an entirely

4531
02:42:51,510 --> 02:42:48,560
mechanical process

4532
02:42:54,230 --> 02:42:51,520
the true feeling which happens next to

4533
02:42:55,990 --> 02:42:54,240
the physical mechanical part of their

4534
02:42:58,309 --> 02:42:56,000
mind the philosophical zombie and so on

4535
02:42:59,590 --> 02:42:58,319
is not driving any behavior so basically

4536
02:43:01,510 --> 02:42:59,600
there would be this locked in

4537
02:43:04,070 --> 02:43:01,520
epithelialism that would helplessly

4538
02:43:05,910 --> 02:43:04,080
watching their body make statements in

4539
02:43:07,510 --> 02:43:05,920
favor or against epiphanicalism but

4540
02:43:09,670 --> 02:43:07,520
there would be no causal relationship

4541
02:43:11,910 --> 02:43:09,680
between the epithelialism so no

4542
02:43:13,190 --> 02:43:11,920
epiphanialist is an epiphanist because

4543
02:43:14,950 --> 02:43:13,200
they have phenomenal experience that

4544
02:43:16,469 --> 02:43:14,960
cannot be explained by physics that is

4545
02:43:19,429 --> 02:43:16,479
the issue here

4546
02:43:21,590 --> 02:43:19,439
and so if sir goes down that past he

4547
02:43:25,190 --> 02:43:21,600
goes down to a very inconvenient place

4548
02:43:28,389 --> 02:43:26,710
okay john i know that you have to get

4549
02:43:29,750 --> 02:43:28,399
going so how about i read the last

4550
02:43:31,510 --> 02:43:29,760
question if it would take too long for

4551
02:43:32,950 --> 02:43:31,520
you to reply then send me an email and

4552
02:43:36,389 --> 02:43:32,960
then i'll read it when i'm re-editing

4553
02:43:39,030 --> 02:43:36,399
this podcast sure okay sure so the last

4554
02:43:40,790 --> 02:43:39,040
question comes from xantheus he says or

4555
02:43:42,230 --> 02:43:40,800
she says these models of consciousness

4556
02:43:43,830 --> 02:43:42,240
seem to focus on explaining the

4557
02:43:46,070 --> 02:43:43,840
production of intelligence or

4558
02:43:48,870 --> 02:43:46,080
assimilation but it is it isn't

4559
02:43:50,550 --> 02:43:48,880
necessarily clear to me why a simulation

4560
02:43:52,630 --> 02:43:50,560
should be able to perceive

4561
02:43:54,389 --> 02:43:52,640
experience itself if we think of meta

4562
02:43:56,550 --> 02:43:54,399
consciousness as a combination of

4563
02:43:58,710 --> 02:43:56,560
intelligence and consciousness the model

4564
02:44:01,349 --> 02:43:58,720
seems to focus mainly on the rise of

4565
02:44:03,990 --> 02:44:01,359
intelligence in meta consciousness how

4566
02:44:08,550 --> 02:44:04,000
do you explain the ability to perceive

4567
02:44:12,710 --> 02:44:10,870
john you start

4568
02:44:13,510 --> 02:44:12,720
um

4569
02:44:15,349 --> 02:44:13,520
so

4570
02:44:17,269 --> 02:44:15,359
it's just a very short easy question

4571
02:44:19,349 --> 02:44:17,279
wrap it up for today with this answering

4572
02:44:21,990 --> 02:44:19,359
the simple question

4573
02:44:23,349 --> 02:44:22,000
uh i mean the the

4574
02:44:24,870 --> 02:44:23,359
it's important to ask that question but

4575
02:44:26,230 --> 02:44:24,880
it's important to not ask that question

4576
02:44:29,110 --> 02:44:26,240
the wrong way

4577
02:44:30,550 --> 02:44:29,120
um you could always ask what it is like

4578
02:44:32,309 --> 02:44:30,560
and the thing and this is like moore's

4579
02:44:34,309 --> 02:44:32,319
thing about the good i can ask that for

4580
02:44:35,830 --> 02:44:34,319
any proposal

4581
02:44:37,429 --> 02:44:35,840
you can even ask that well you know what

4582
02:44:39,670 --> 02:44:37,439
it's like is to have qualia well what's

4583
02:44:41,910 --> 02:44:39,680
it like to have qualia do i have qualia

4584
02:44:42,790 --> 02:44:41,920
of my quality like you have to you like

4585
02:44:44,230 --> 02:44:42,800
there

4586
02:44:46,550 --> 02:44:44,240
and this is the difficulty you have to

4587
02:44:49,030 --> 02:44:46,560
come to a place where

4588
02:44:50,630 --> 02:44:49,040
you're saying that's what it is like to

4589
02:44:52,070 --> 02:44:50,640
be what it is like

4590
02:44:54,550 --> 02:44:52,080
um and we didn't get into it too much

4591
02:44:57,190 --> 02:44:54,560
but like i said at the very beginning

4592
02:45:01,110 --> 02:44:57,200
that primary sense of relevance

4593
02:45:03,670 --> 02:45:01,120
and i think is a big piece of what it's

4594
02:45:05,190 --> 02:45:03,680
likeness it's it's why things stand out

4595
02:45:07,190 --> 02:45:05,200
and they are salient and they're

4596
02:45:09,750 --> 02:45:07,200
backgrounded it's why things are

4597
02:45:12,389 --> 02:45:09,760
aspectualized for us to use one of soros

4598
02:45:14,389 --> 02:45:12,399
notions um

4599
02:45:16,230 --> 02:45:14,399
and many people are converging on the

4600
02:45:19,110 --> 02:45:16,240
idea that the function

4601
02:45:21,269 --> 02:45:19,120
of consciousness is this kind of higher

4602
02:45:23,190 --> 02:45:21,279
order relevance realization and that's

4603
02:45:26,830 --> 02:45:23,200
why it overlaps with working memory and

4604
02:45:30,150 --> 02:45:26,840
attentional machinery um

4605
02:45:32,950 --> 02:45:30,160
so what it's like

4606
02:45:34,309 --> 02:45:32,960
if that's right if what it's like is

4607
02:45:36,150 --> 02:45:34,319
this ability

4608
02:45:38,630 --> 02:45:36,160
to

4609
02:45:40,630 --> 02:45:38,640
do salience landscaping

4610
02:45:43,750 --> 02:45:40,640
to have this dynamic texture of how

4611
02:45:45,110 --> 02:45:43,760
things are relevant to you

4612
02:45:46,790 --> 02:45:45,120
if that's a big part of what it's like

4613
02:45:48,630 --> 02:45:46,800
and i think it is by the way because all

4614
02:45:50,150 --> 02:45:48,640
of the in the pure consciousness event

4615
02:45:51,750 --> 02:45:50,160
all of those other

4616
02:45:53,349 --> 02:45:51,760
things that are so beloved all the

4617
02:45:54,630 --> 02:45:53,359
adjectival qualias and all the other

4618
02:45:56,389 --> 02:45:54,640
things they go away and consciousness

4619
02:45:58,870 --> 02:45:56,399
doesn't so those things can't be

4620
02:46:00,870 --> 02:45:58,880
necessary conditions for consciousness

4621
02:46:01,910 --> 02:46:00,880
if that's par a significant part of what

4622
02:46:02,950 --> 02:46:01,920
it's like

4623
02:46:04,870 --> 02:46:02,960
then

4624
02:46:10,309 --> 02:46:04,880
being intelligent

4625
02:46:12,950 --> 02:46:10,319
capacity to zero in on relevant

4626
02:46:14,389 --> 02:46:12,960
information exclude relevant information

4627
02:46:16,389 --> 02:46:14,399
that's why you get

4628
02:46:18,389 --> 02:46:16,399
high correlations between measures of

4629
02:46:20,630 --> 02:46:18,399
general intelligence and measures of

4630
02:46:22,469 --> 02:46:20,640
working memory uh but of course there's

4631
02:46:24,550 --> 02:46:22,479
deep inter there's deep

4632
02:46:26,790 --> 02:46:24,560
anatomical relations between the

4633
02:46:29,190 --> 02:46:26,800
machinery of working memory and

4634
02:46:32,070 --> 02:46:29,200
attention and fluid intelligence and

4635
02:46:34,070 --> 02:46:32,080
consciousness so

4636
02:46:36,309 --> 02:46:34,080
i think the question is now being

4637
02:46:38,309 --> 02:46:36,319
to a place where i want to say no no no

4638
02:46:39,590 --> 02:46:38,319
and by the way think of notice how you

4639
02:46:41,750 --> 02:46:39,600
run on that

4640
02:46:44,150 --> 02:46:41,760
you genuinely you gen

4641
02:46:46,150 --> 02:46:44,160
you generally attribute

4642
02:46:48,710 --> 02:46:46,160
consciousness where you s where you

4643
02:46:49,990 --> 02:46:48,720
attribute high orders of intel of of

4644
02:46:53,750 --> 02:46:50,000
intelligence

4645
02:46:56,309 --> 02:46:53,760
you track them together uh like uh uh

4646
02:46:59,190 --> 02:46:56,319
yasha i i i don't well i go further i

4647
02:47:01,590 --> 02:46:59,200
don't even eat mammals uh because of

4648
02:47:03,830 --> 02:47:01,600
that conclusion about mammals likewise

4649
02:47:07,429 --> 02:47:03,840
yeah well there you go um

4650
02:47:09,110 --> 02:47:07,439
and so for me right

4651
02:47:11,750 --> 02:47:09,120
there there has to be a level at which

4652
02:47:13,349 --> 02:47:11,760
you accept an identity statement

4653
02:47:15,349 --> 02:47:13,359
because like i said you can always play

4654
02:47:17,910 --> 02:47:15,359
the game no matter what i that is what

4655
02:47:20,070 --> 02:47:17,920
it if i say x is what it is like you can

4656
02:47:22,630 --> 02:47:20,080
then then you can just do ah but what is

4657
02:47:25,349 --> 02:47:22,640
it like to write x you have to come to a

4658
02:47:28,070 --> 02:47:25,359
place where you accept the i i

4659
02:47:30,150 --> 02:47:28,080
an identity claim

4660
02:47:32,790 --> 02:47:30,160
and i'm proposing to you that if you

4661
02:47:34,309 --> 02:47:32,800
look into the guts of intelligence at

4662
02:47:35,429 --> 02:47:34,319
least general intelligence fluid

4663
02:47:37,030 --> 02:47:35,439
intelligence

4664
02:47:38,230 --> 02:47:37,040
and then you look into the guts of

4665
02:47:39,349 --> 02:47:38,240
consciousness and where do we need

4666
02:47:41,110 --> 02:47:39,359
consciousness we seem to need

4667
02:47:44,070 --> 02:47:41,120
consciousness for situations that are

4668
02:47:46,469 --> 02:47:44,080
novel for that are complex that are

4669
02:47:47,910 --> 02:47:46,479
ill-defined and situations that don't

4670
02:47:49,750 --> 02:47:47,920
have those demands we can we can make

4671
02:47:52,870 --> 02:47:49,760
automatic unconscious

4672
02:47:55,110 --> 02:47:52,880
uh that's a good point made by burnside

4673
02:47:57,190 --> 02:47:55,120
i don't think the questions about

4674
02:48:00,070 --> 02:47:57,200
intelligence and consciousness are

4675
02:48:01,910 --> 02:48:00,080
ultimately separable questions and i

4676
02:48:04,710 --> 02:48:01,920
think there's good reasons for that i've

4677
02:48:07,670 --> 02:48:04,720
just given you some and therefore

4678
02:48:10,469 --> 02:48:07,680
i think at some level

4679
02:48:12,469 --> 02:48:10,479
and i i maybe yosha will like this

4680
02:48:15,030 --> 02:48:12,479
when a system is sufficiently

4681
02:48:18,070 --> 02:48:15,040
intelligent

4682
02:48:22,230 --> 02:48:19,990
uh that's what i would argue

4683
02:48:23,830 --> 02:48:22,240
uh for the reasons i've just given and

4684
02:48:25,910 --> 02:48:23,840
asking me but what is it like to be

4685
02:48:27,190 --> 02:48:25,920
intelligent or what's it like to be like

4686
02:48:28,950 --> 02:48:27,200
notice you don't ask the question about

4687
02:48:30,389 --> 02:48:28,960
what is it like to be conscious in the

4688
02:48:31,110 --> 02:48:30,399
sense of what's behind

4689
02:48:33,830 --> 02:48:31,120
it

4690
02:48:37,349 --> 02:48:33,840
right you have to come to a level at

4691
02:48:42,870 --> 02:48:40,309
no that's what that's this this is what

4692
02:48:44,469 --> 02:48:42,880
it is liking is this is the function

4693
02:48:47,190 --> 02:48:44,479
it's performing this is the kind of

4694
02:48:49,349 --> 02:48:47,200
process it is

4695
02:48:51,510 --> 02:48:49,359
if not if you don't put some bound on

4696
02:48:53,429 --> 02:48:51,520
where that identity is possible then you

4697
02:48:55,110 --> 02:48:53,439
just get an infinite regret aggressive

4698
02:48:57,030 --> 02:48:55,120
this question because no matter what i

4699
02:48:59,349 --> 02:48:57,040
pause it for you you can step back and

4700
02:49:00,790 --> 02:48:59,359
say but what is it like to x

4701
02:49:02,150 --> 02:49:00,800
and then i'll say well what's it like to

4702
02:49:04,550 --> 02:49:02,160
x is to y and you'll say but what is it

4703
02:49:06,150 --> 02:49:04,560
like to why this is like the

4704
02:49:08,630 --> 02:49:06,160
the four-year-old asks you why all the

4705
02:49:10,550 --> 02:49:08,640
time right you have to come to a place

4706
02:49:13,110 --> 02:49:10,560
and what i can't give you is i can't

4707
02:49:14,150 --> 02:49:13,120
give you a phenomenological experience

4708
02:49:16,230 --> 02:49:14,160
of that

4709
02:49:18,230 --> 02:49:16,240
because you're trying to ask how

4710
02:49:20,070 --> 02:49:18,240
phenomenological experience is itself

4711
02:49:21,910 --> 02:49:20,080
possible

4712
02:49:23,510 --> 02:49:21,920
what i can give you are these plausible

4713
02:49:26,150 --> 02:49:23,520
arguments about overlapping

4714
02:49:28,230 --> 02:49:26,160
functionality etc

4715
02:49:29,830 --> 02:49:28,240
that's how i would answer that question

4716
02:49:32,070 --> 02:49:29,840
okay let me try

4717
02:49:34,630 --> 02:49:32,080
so uh there is an issue for instance

4718
02:49:37,030 --> 02:49:34,640
free will free will is

4719
02:49:38,950 --> 02:49:37,040
an intermediate representation i think

4720
02:49:41,190 --> 02:49:38,960
free will is what decision making under

4721
02:49:43,110 --> 02:49:41,200
uncertainty looks like from your own

4722
02:49:44,550 --> 02:49:43,120
perspective between discovering the

4723
02:49:46,870 --> 02:49:44,560
first person perspective and

4724
02:49:49,349 --> 02:49:46,880
deconstructing it again

4725
02:49:50,790 --> 02:49:49,359
and once you have destruct deconstructed

4726
02:49:52,389 --> 02:49:50,800
your first person perspective you

4727
02:49:54,070 --> 02:49:52,399
basically realize that there is a

4728
02:49:55,269 --> 02:49:54,080
particular procedure that you are

4729
02:49:56,710 --> 02:49:55,279
following when you are making your

4730
02:49:58,550 --> 02:49:56,720
decisions

4731
02:50:00,070 --> 02:49:58,560
and when you observe yourself following

4732
02:50:01,990 --> 02:50:00,080
that procedure you will not have an

4733
02:50:04,070 --> 02:50:02,000
experience of free will

4734
02:50:05,510 --> 02:50:04,080
it's just we rarely get to the point in

4735
02:50:07,269 --> 02:50:05,520
our short lives where we fully

4736
02:50:10,630 --> 02:50:07,279
deconstruct this

4737
02:50:12,230 --> 02:50:10,640
and i just give this example to argue

4738
02:50:14,389 --> 02:50:12,240
for the possibility and i'm not sure

4739
02:50:15,830 --> 02:50:14,399
there's no certainty there that

4740
02:50:17,590 --> 02:50:15,840
consciousness might be an intermediate

4741
02:50:19,990 --> 02:50:17,600
representation

4742
02:50:21,670 --> 02:50:20,000
it's best the simplification of the

4743
02:50:23,670 --> 02:50:21,680
state of affairs and which we are in

4744
02:50:25,750 --> 02:50:23,680
before we automate all the necessary

4745
02:50:28,550 --> 02:50:25,760
behaviors that an intelligent system

4746
02:50:30,070 --> 02:50:28,560
might have want to exhibit in uh when

4747
02:50:31,750 --> 02:50:30,080
it's being confronted with the world in

4748
02:50:33,429 --> 02:50:31,760
which we are in

4749
02:50:35,110 --> 02:50:33,439
the reason why we

4750
02:50:36,950 --> 02:50:35,120
experience things is not because

4751
02:50:39,349 --> 02:50:36,960
physical systems would be capable of

4752
02:50:41,830 --> 02:50:39,359
doing so it's quite the opposite neurons

4753
02:50:45,110 --> 02:50:41,840
cannot experience what it would be like

4754
02:50:47,190 --> 02:50:45,120
to be a person that is confronted with a

4755
02:50:49,030 --> 02:50:47,200
complex world and it changes its

4756
02:50:51,510 --> 02:50:49,040
attitudes in response to what's

4757
02:50:53,830 --> 02:50:51,520
happening to it in this complex world

4758
02:50:56,230 --> 02:50:53,840
but for the organization of the neurons

4759
02:50:57,590 --> 02:50:56,240
that is uh controlling the behavior of

4760
02:50:59,590 --> 02:50:57,600
the organism

4761
02:51:01,510 --> 02:50:59,600
it would be very useful

4762
02:51:03,269 --> 02:51:01,520
to have this

4763
02:51:05,269 --> 02:51:03,279
knowledge of what it would be like to be

4764
02:51:07,349 --> 02:51:05,279
a person that is changing its attitudes

4765
02:51:09,670 --> 02:51:07,359
in response to what's happening to it

4766
02:51:11,750 --> 02:51:09,680
so what the neurons are doing is they

4767
02:51:14,070 --> 02:51:11,760
implement a model of what that would be

4768
02:51:16,550 --> 02:51:14,080
like a simulation of what that would be

4769
02:51:18,550 --> 02:51:16,560
like in the same way as the neurons

4770
02:51:20,469 --> 02:51:18,560
create a simulation of euclidean

4771
02:51:22,950 --> 02:51:20,479
universe with objects that bump into

4772
02:51:25,990 --> 02:51:22,960
each other and have causal interaction

4773
02:51:28,389 --> 02:51:26,000
the neurons create the model of agents

4774
02:51:29,990 --> 02:51:28,399
that try a care about future states and

4775
02:51:31,910 --> 02:51:30,000
how they play out and make decisions

4776
02:51:33,510 --> 02:51:31,920
about this and one of these agents is

4777
02:51:35,830 --> 02:51:33,520
going to be a model of the organism

4778
02:51:37,349 --> 02:51:35,840
itself and the behavior that motivates

4779
02:51:39,349 --> 02:51:37,359
the organism

4780
02:51:41,030 --> 02:51:39,359
and the reason why we experience things

4781
02:51:42,870 --> 02:51:41,040
is not because we are in the brain it's

4782
02:51:44,389 --> 02:51:42,880
because we are in that model we are in

4783
02:51:46,870 --> 02:51:44,399
that simulation we are in that dream

4784
02:51:49,110 --> 02:51:46,880
that is woven by the brain to explain

4785
02:51:51,030 --> 02:51:49,120
its own behavior the experience sings

4786
02:51:52,950 --> 02:51:51,040
for the same reason that the character

4787
02:51:55,110 --> 02:51:52,960
in a novel experiences things it's

4788
02:51:56,550 --> 02:51:55,120
because it's written in the story

4789
02:51:58,469 --> 02:51:56,560
and the story that we experience of

4790
02:51:59,670 --> 02:51:58,479
course is not a linear narrative made up

4791
02:52:01,429 --> 02:51:59,680
of words

4792
02:52:02,950 --> 02:52:01,439
it's a more complicated world it's a

4793
02:52:04,630 --> 02:52:02,960
causal structure

4794
02:52:06,630 --> 02:52:04,640
that contains

4795
02:52:08,950 --> 02:52:06,640
the necessary properties to simulate

4796
02:52:10,230 --> 02:52:08,960
physics and personality and agency and

4797
02:52:13,110 --> 02:52:10,240
so on

4798
02:52:15,030 --> 02:52:13,120
and we find ourselves in that dream

4799
02:52:16,150 --> 02:52:15,040
so our experience of the world is

4800
02:52:18,630 --> 02:52:16,160
virtual

4801
02:52:23,590 --> 02:52:18,640
it's a result of the capacity of neurons

4802
02:52:27,429 --> 02:52:25,349
there was a question that came from anil

4803
02:52:29,110 --> 02:52:27,439
seth professor anil seth and there's a

4804
02:52:30,230 --> 02:52:29,120
podcast of anil seth on this channel if

4805
02:52:33,190 --> 02:52:30,240
you'd like to check it out on

4806
02:52:35,349 --> 02:52:33,200
consciousness professor anil seth asks

4807
02:52:37,910 --> 02:52:35,359
yosha do you believe consciousness to be

4808
02:52:40,150 --> 02:52:37,920
substrate independent i.e a silicone

4809
02:52:43,510 --> 02:52:40,160
computer in principle could be conscious

4810
02:52:46,150 --> 02:52:43,520
and if so why yosha responded to me via

4811
02:52:48,070 --> 02:52:46,160
email and said there is no known reason

4812
02:52:50,230 --> 02:52:48,080
why the process playing out in the brain

4813
02:52:52,150 --> 02:52:50,240
cannot be functionally replicated on a

4814
02:52:53,830 --> 02:52:52,160
silicon-based computer i think that

4815
02:52:55,750 --> 02:52:53,840
consciousness is not so much a side

4816
02:52:57,429 --> 02:52:55,760
effect of how a biological brain makes

4817
02:52:59,750 --> 02:52:57,439
sense of the world but of the need to

4818
02:53:02,070 --> 02:52:59,760
create a coherent representation out of

4819
02:53:03,750 --> 02:53:02,080
dynamic perceptual features because of

4820
02:53:05,670 --> 02:53:03,760
this i think it's likely that

4821
02:53:08,309 --> 02:53:05,680
intelligent autonomous sense-making

4822
02:53:10,469 --> 02:53:08,319
agents with similar complexity as ours

4823
02:53:12,710 --> 02:53:10,479
may be considered conscious in ways that

4824
02:53:14,950 --> 02:53:12,720
are comparable to ours even if they run

4825
02:53:16,950 --> 02:53:14,960
on a silicon substrate

4826
02:53:18,870 --> 02:53:16,960
there's an important caveat our

4827
02:53:20,790 --> 02:53:18,880
computers provide some functionality

4828
02:53:22,710 --> 02:53:20,800
which is hard to achieve in the brain

4829
02:53:24,389 --> 02:53:22,720
they're almost fully deterministic

4830
02:53:26,309 --> 02:53:24,399
they're synchronized in ways that allow

4831
02:53:28,309 --> 02:53:26,319
each part to rely on the functionality

4832
02:53:29,990 --> 02:53:28,319
of all others at any given time and they

4833
02:53:31,830 --> 02:53:30,000
can make information available very

4834
02:53:33,429 --> 02:53:31,840
quickly throughout the entire processing

4835
02:53:35,590 --> 02:53:33,439
architecture crucial parts of the

4836
02:53:37,830 --> 02:53:35,600
phenomenology of human consciousness

4837
02:53:39,750 --> 02:53:37,840
especially reflexive consciousness may

4838
02:53:41,429 --> 02:53:39,760
be the result of self-organizing

4839
02:53:43,670 --> 02:53:41,439
processes that our brains cannot do

4840
02:53:46,230 --> 02:53:43,680
without but that may not be necessary in

4841
02:53:48,469 --> 02:53:46,240
our digital computers

4842
02:53:51,190 --> 02:53:48,479
thank you both for coming the audience

4843
02:53:53,150 --> 02:53:51,200
thanks you there were i think 500 people

4844
02:53:57,590 --> 02:53:53,160
at its peak and right now it's around

4845
02:53:59,590 --> 02:53:57,600
430 or so so it hovered from 400 to 500.

4846
02:54:01,429 --> 02:53:59,600
thank you all thank you yoshi thank you

4847
02:54:03,349 --> 02:54:01,439
john

4848
02:54:05,910 --> 02:54:03,359
thank you thank you for setting this up

4849
02:54:07,510 --> 02:54:05,920
it was a very pleasant conversation i

4850
02:54:11,269 --> 02:54:07,520
was surprised that we don't seem to have

4851
02:54:15,110 --> 02:54:13,190
well maybe maybe it's the level we were

4852
02:54:18,389 --> 02:54:15,120
talking at i i sort of wanted to talk at

4853
02:54:20,309 --> 02:54:18,399
a very fundamental ontological level and

4854
02:54:23,110 --> 02:54:20,319
um

4855
02:54:25,190 --> 02:54:23,120
i wanted to understand you much more

4856
02:54:27,190 --> 02:54:25,200
than just sort of simply debate you uh

4857
02:54:29,670 --> 02:54:27,200
likewise and i think that we have a uh

4858
02:54:32,950 --> 02:54:29,680
both bound by the same rules of the

4859
02:54:35,030 --> 02:54:32,960
glass parent field in a way yes yes yes

4860
02:54:36,230 --> 02:54:35,040
yeah very good so

4861
02:54:38,230 --> 02:54:36,240
thank you very much it's a great

4862
02:54:40,710 --> 02:54:38,240
pleasure meeting you uh

4863
02:54:43,429 --> 02:54:40,720
i enjoyed this conversation uh amanda

4864
02:54:45,190 --> 02:54:43,439
thank you soon thank you very much

4865
02:54:48,230 --> 02:54:45,200
take care of both of you

4866
02:54:50,550 --> 02:54:48,240
and yoshi you'll send me your audio

4867
02:54:51,510 --> 02:54:50,560
i vote great okay we'll communicate over

4868
02:54:53,190 --> 02:54:51,520
email

4869
02:54:55,030 --> 02:54:53,200
all right have a good afternoon everyone

4870
02:54:56,630 --> 02:54:55,040
thank you very good rest of the day

4871
02:54:58,469 --> 02:54:56,640
wherever you are

4872
02:55:00,070 --> 02:54:58,479
thank you everyone thank you for your

4873
02:55:02,630 --> 02:55:00,080
time and attention

4874
02:55:04,070 --> 02:55:02,640
okay everyone i will be sticking around

4875
02:55:05,269 --> 02:55:04,080
and i'll answer some audience questions

4876
02:55:12,230 --> 02:55:05,279
but i gotta get

4877
02:55:16,790 --> 02:55:14,710
okay so phrase 14 phrasal 14 wants to

4878
02:55:18,790 --> 02:55:16,800
know what i consider thomas metzinger on

4879
02:55:20,230 --> 02:55:18,800
the program i don't know who that is

4880
02:55:21,349 --> 02:55:20,240
so i will look into that i'll make a

4881
02:55:22,870 --> 02:55:21,359
note

4882
02:55:24,710 --> 02:55:22,880
yes i should let you know that there's a

4883
02:55:27,190 --> 02:55:24,720
sponsor of today's episode and it's a

4884
02:55:32,150 --> 02:55:27,200
new one it's a small podcast by the name

4885
02:55:36,070 --> 02:55:34,070
and it's run by someone named thiago who

4886
02:55:38,469 --> 02:55:36,080
reached out to me and he touches on

4887
02:55:40,550 --> 02:55:38,479
similar themes so if you look at so that

4888
02:55:41,990 --> 02:55:40,560
person is who's responsible for bringing

4889
02:55:45,269 --> 02:55:42,000
this talk together

4890
02:55:46,630 --> 02:55:45,279
thank you thiago okay

4891
02:55:48,469 --> 02:55:46,640
i guess i should get going if there are

4892
02:55:50,870 --> 02:55:48,479
any quick questions for me

4893
02:55:52,870 --> 02:55:50,880
then i'll answer right now if not then i

4894
02:55:54,230 --> 02:55:52,880
will say goodbye to you all and get

4895
02:55:55,750 --> 02:55:54,240
something to eat

4896
02:55:57,750 --> 02:55:55,760
okay so is there any chance of having

4897
02:55:59,349 --> 02:55:57,760
nema or connie hamed on the channel i've

4898
02:56:01,110 --> 02:55:59,359
reached out to nema several times it

4899
02:56:03,030 --> 02:56:01,120
turns out that my brother

4900
02:56:04,950 --> 02:56:03,040
went to university with them studying

4901
02:56:06,309 --> 02:56:04,960
physics at the same time so i'll see if

4902
02:56:08,950 --> 02:56:06,319
i can use that connection though they

4903
02:56:11,349 --> 02:56:08,960
parted ways after graduate school

4904
02:56:13,750 --> 02:56:11,359
lisa feldman barrett yes she's on the

4905
02:56:15,429 --> 02:56:13,760
list though i need to look into her work

4906
02:56:17,110 --> 02:56:15,439
et vin wants to know if i expected to

4907
02:56:18,550 --> 02:56:17,120
have more disagreements i thought i was

4908
02:56:20,309 --> 02:56:18,560
surprised at what yosha said where he

4909
02:56:21,429 --> 02:56:20,319
said well we agree more than we disagree

4910
02:56:23,030 --> 02:56:21,439
i thought it was mainly filled with

4911
02:56:25,030 --> 02:56:23,040
disagreements or more about

4912
02:56:27,030 --> 02:56:25,040
clarifications than disagreements which

4913
02:56:28,870 --> 02:56:27,040
can be their own disagreement giulio

4914
02:56:31,830 --> 02:56:28,880
wants to know what i get a traditional

4915
02:56:33,429 --> 02:56:31,840
advice monk the answer is yes and if you

4916
02:56:36,550 --> 02:56:33,439
take a look at this video that i have

4917
02:56:38,710 --> 02:56:36,560
about the 2022 plans

4918
02:56:40,870 --> 02:56:38,720
you'll see that i do

4919
02:56:43,429 --> 02:56:40,880
have a great interest in speaking with

4920
02:56:45,269 --> 02:56:43,439
people from the more eastern ends of the

4921
02:56:46,710 --> 02:56:45,279
philosophical spectrum

4922
02:56:49,510 --> 02:56:46,720
so yes the answer is yes and that'll be

4923
02:56:51,910 --> 02:56:49,520
toward the latter half of the year

4924
02:56:53,750 --> 02:56:51,920
now the reason for why it's so far away

4925
02:56:55,590 --> 02:56:53,760
is because it

4926
02:56:57,110 --> 02:56:55,600
my background is in math and physics so

4927
02:56:58,870 --> 02:56:57,120
let's say i'm supposed to let's say i'm

4928
02:57:00,389 --> 02:56:58,880
going to be interviewing someone for

4929
02:57:02,870 --> 02:57:00,399
their theory of everything like let's

4930
02:57:04,710 --> 02:57:02,880
say garrett lisey it'll be much easier

4931
02:57:06,710 --> 02:57:04,720
for me to understand his theory than it

4932
02:57:08,550 --> 02:57:06,720
would be for me to understand someone

4933
02:57:11,030 --> 02:57:08,560
who's an advice a monk

4934
02:57:12,389 --> 02:57:11,040
it would take much more time because i'd

4935
02:57:14,309 --> 02:57:12,399
like to implement some meditative

4936
02:57:16,150 --> 02:57:14,319
strategies that is i'd like to meditate

4937
02:57:17,910 --> 02:57:16,160
some meditation practice

4938
02:57:20,790 --> 02:57:17,920
in order to experientially understand

4939
02:57:23,110 --> 02:57:20,800
what they're saying and it's not

4940
02:57:25,750 --> 02:57:23,120
it's not trivial to me and i don't take

4941
02:57:27,990 --> 02:57:25,760
it lightly martin you want to know is

4942
02:57:29,590 --> 02:57:28,000
bach a materialist dualist or idealist

4943
02:57:30,950 --> 02:57:29,600
he says he's not an idealist he comes

4944
02:57:33,269 --> 02:57:30,960
close which isn't he's like a

4945
02:57:34,630 --> 02:57:33,279
physicalist idealist and he's not i

4946
02:57:35,910 --> 02:57:34,640
don't know if he's a materialist i think

4947
02:57:37,830 --> 02:57:35,920
he would it would be closer to

4948
02:57:43,590 --> 02:57:37,840
materialism one of my goals with this

4949
02:57:47,429 --> 02:57:45,429
and luckily i didn't have to interject

4950
02:57:48,870 --> 02:57:47,439
much i thought that what was going to

4951
02:57:50,950 --> 02:57:48,880
happen was they were going to be

4952
02:57:52,309 --> 02:57:50,960
difficult to follow because much of what

4953
02:57:53,990 --> 02:57:52,319
they say

4954
02:57:55,830 --> 02:57:54,000
and this is evidenced in the comment

4955
02:57:57,429 --> 02:57:55,840
section of any of their videos

4956
02:57:59,429 --> 02:57:57,439
people can't follow people have a

4957
02:58:02,070 --> 02:57:59,439
difficult time understanding because

4958
02:58:03,110 --> 02:58:02,080
it's so steeped in cognitive scientific

4959
02:58:06,469 --> 02:58:03,120
jargon

4960
02:58:07,510 --> 02:58:06,479
terminology that's unfamiliar to most

4961
02:58:09,190 --> 02:58:07,520
and then

4962
02:58:11,030 --> 02:58:09,200
on top of that with yoshibok there's

4963
02:58:13,190 --> 02:58:11,040
computer science analogies and then on

4964
02:58:15,349 --> 02:58:13,200
top of that there's yoshibok's idiolect

4965
02:58:16,550 --> 02:58:15,359
like his personal language where the

4966
02:58:18,870 --> 02:58:16,560
analogies

4967
02:58:21,990 --> 02:58:18,880
between computer science and reality

4968
02:58:24,630 --> 02:58:22,000
are made in a manner that is unique to

4969
02:58:26,790 --> 02:58:24,640
him and he's so

4970
02:58:27,510 --> 02:58:26,800
familiar with his own model that i don't

4971
02:58:28,870 --> 02:58:27,520
think

4972
02:58:31,269 --> 02:58:28,880
him nor

4973
02:58:34,230 --> 02:58:31,279
nor john vervicky are aware when they're

4974
02:58:36,070 --> 02:58:34,240
speaking above or below someone

4975
02:58:37,910 --> 02:58:36,080
and i was thinking that i would have to

4976
02:58:39,349 --> 02:58:37,920
step in and slow down and break down

4977
02:58:42,630 --> 02:58:39,359
sentences

4978
02:58:43,590 --> 02:58:42,640
however that didn't need to happen

4979
02:58:45,190 --> 02:58:43,600
at all

4980
02:58:47,670 --> 02:58:45,200
okay well

4981
02:58:51,590 --> 02:58:47,680
thank you everyone thank you and have a

4982
02:58:55,269 --> 02:58:53,510
the podcast is now finished if you'd

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like to support conversations like this

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02:59:02,550 --> 02:58:58,399
then do consider going to patreon.com

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c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

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that is kurt jymungal it's support from

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the patrons and from the sponsors that